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Bump Stock Ban Allegedly Close


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#41 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 09:32 PM

Of course the flip side may be Trump did exactly what the democrats asked him to do with effectively complete confiscation, and as draconian as possible,  knowing full well that it would be shot down by the courts when challenged?   Win win for everyone but the liberals and he gets to say he banned them.  If I had a postie lower I'd submit the whole thing to tech branch and ask for a ruling as to whether it was one machine gun or two and see what the response is?  And if mfr's can posses them if form 2'ed as post samples? 

 

I agree if this holds it's an inch and it will result in further demands.  I just wish the hill we were pushing up wasn't necessarily bump stocks?


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#42 The Lone Ranger

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Posted 21 December 2018 - 07:39 AM

Im guessing the definition of machine gun will be a focal point in the goa court case.

 

One of several hopefully.  I don't have unlimited faith in the judiciary to limit the expansion of executive power (which in most cases is supported by congress to avoid actually voting on something that might risk re-election) but there are multiple aspects to pick from: the classification itself, taking (no due process, no compensation), and using a regulation to expand a statute.

 

If I had a postie lower I'd submit the whole thing to tech branch and ask for a ruling as to whether it was one machine gun or two and see what the response is?  And if mfr's can posses them if form 2'ed as post samples? 

 

I agree if this holds it's an inch and it will result in further demands.  I just wish the hill we were pushing up wasn't necessarily bump stocks?

 

 

Based on this regulation you would have two (no exemption for these being MGs if attached to or being in proximity of another MG).  Allegedly people were allowed to F2 the Accelerators (but I have never actually seen a registration).  There is no provision in law to do that but doesn't mean it didn't happen.


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#43 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 08:45 AM

So if I put a binary trigger into an M16 registered receiver and add a bump stock, it's three machine guns with one barrel?   Vs. a chain gun with one receiver and three barrels is only one gun? 

 

I don't see any way ATF will be able to defend the executive order in court based on their (fairly) longstanding definitions, which I would contend is why the order was written as is in the first place....to be easily defeated.  Gonna be tough to even classify a stock as a weapon in the first place?  A long fiberglass M14 stock, maybe, but a short light plastic nub that's already two pieces with no sharp edges and flimsy.....going to be fun to watch.  While I know the mainstream media selectively reports, I'm pretty sure I would have heard about the nations first bump stock beating at some point?   Since  a bump stock cannot hold or fire ammunition the odds of a shooting with one are rather unlikely?  Like a knife or a firearm, they sit there rather docile until some human makes a choice to utilize them in an aggressive manor.   If one surrenders a bump stock to ATF is there a bump stock jail where they put these things so they don't endanger the agents?  LOL

 

Yes there are registered akins stocks.   A local 02/07 has one.....postie and I have no idea what he called it when he registered it so stuff like that is generally untrackable.  Fortunately in the US there is a mechanism for owning everything legally including nuclear materials, heroin, fentanyl, etc.  the question is how much of the restriction is reasonable to comply with for the average citizen.


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#44 giantpune

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 11:14 AM

The ruling says nothing about binary triggers or cranks.  They still aren't machineguns.

 

The ATF site has instruction for how to destroy bumpstocks.  They're very specific down to individual models and manufacturers.  They listed like 15 different bumpstocks an not one page about binary triggers.  


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#45 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 02:20 PM

giantpune, on 22 Dec 2018 - 10:20, said:
The ruling says nothing about binary triggers. They still aren't machineguns.

The ATF site has instruction for how to destroy bumpstocks. They're very specific down to individual models and manufacturers. They listed like 15 different bumpstocks an not one page about binary triggers.

What you mean is they haven't figured out it meets their definition yet. What do you call a gun that fires twice with a single function (pull) of the trigger? The trigger return spring stores potential energy and is used to fire the second round regardless of whether your finger is there or not...effectively the same as an Atkins or other type device that utilized stored energy to move the receiver to facilitate one or more additional rounds without an additional "pull". Cranks, (unless you attach a large flywheel) do not do this and will be fine. Took a couple years to assess the stock/ spring concept. This is government, not google who has already cataloged and assessed what I already typed and tweaked my browser to capitalize on my content or packaged and sold that information. Government became motionless at 12:01 this morning LOL......expect delays, but they will get there.

The other way to "destroy" bump stocks would be to fusion weld the action in numerous ways making the stock solid, but you didn't see that offered did you? Courts have banned some people from drunk driving their cars, but I've not heard of the court ordering their car be sawed in two pieces?

Edited by johnsonlmg41, 22 December 2018 - 02:28 PM.

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#46 Sandman1957

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 08:48 PM

Well for those with an advanced sense of humor, while they are still "legal" mail them to your favorite government official with timing such that "it looks good when it left here" but arrives when it is contraband, so "they" are in possession of (then) illegal devices... 


Edited by Sandman1957, 23 December 2018 - 08:51 PM.

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#47 CptCurl

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 07:19 AM

Well for those with an advanced sense of humor, while they are still "legal" mail them to your favorite government official with timing such that "it looks good when it left here" but arrives when it is contraband, so "they" are in possession of (then) illegal devices... 

 

 

Great idea!  You could enclose a message:  "Dear slimeball politician, I can't have this and don't know what to do with it.  Thought I would send it to you since you took away my right to it.  Enjoy!"


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#48 Mike Hammer

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 06:03 PM

Here's the link to the ATF instructions on how to destroy your bump stock if you have one.

 

 https://www.atf.gov/...agrams/download

 

MH


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#49 StrangeRanger

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 06:20 PM

Well for those with an advanced sense of humor, while they are still "legal" mail them to your favorite government official with timing such that "it looks good when it left here" but arrives when it is contraband, so "they" are in possession of (then) illegal devices... 

 

 

Great idea!  You could enclose a message:  "Dear slimeball politician, I can't have this and don't know what to do with it.  Thought I would send it to you since you took away my right to it.  Enjoy!"

Just remember that Congress had NOTHING to do with this.  The only slimeball politician involved was the orange bag of diarrhea in the White House.


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#50 ppgcowboy

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 07:20 PM

Wish I could find mine it got stolen.
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#51 The Lone Ranger

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 07:50 PM

GOA filed.....

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Edited by The Lone Ranger, 26 December 2018 - 07:52 PM.

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#52 alaskasoluhurn

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:05 PM

While Bumb Stocks may not be your cup of tea the government should not be able to accomplish this ex post facto end run around the second amendment, do you remember when street sweepers were made DD's simply because they were black and ugly, there are much better shotguns now out on the market that RE BETTER, FASTER and not DD 


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#53 Mike Hammer

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 07:09 AM

Just remember, if they get away with doing this, they can easily get away with banning full auto completely. I applaud GOA for going after this, this law should be overturned if there is any credence in our justice system, (I'm not holding my breath)!. 

MH 


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#54 NFA amnesty

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 07:55 PM

So the government (ATF) allows the manufacture of a gun stock that is not considered a machine gun and folks purchase the item.  Then the ATF being pressured by Trump changes the status to machine gun and now they are to be confiscated without compensation or any consideration to have them taxed and allow the existing inventory to be sold/bought.  

 

I am still scratching my bald head on this.  I don't own one nor ever had the urge to purchase but this just does not add up.


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#55 mnshooter

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Posted 16 February 2019 - 07:43 PM

giantpune, on 22 Dec 2018 - 10:20, said:
The ruling says nothing about binary triggers. They still aren't machineguns.

The ATF site has instruction for how to destroy bumpstocks. They're very specific down to individual models and manufacturers. They listed like 15 different bumpstocks an not one page about binary triggers.


The other way to "destroy" bump stocks would be to fusion weld the action in numerous ways making the stock solid, but you didn't see that offered did you? Courts have banned some people from drunk driving their cars, but I've not heard of the court ordering their car be sawed in two pieces?

When the 94 ban passed, existing CAR/M4 type stocks were glued in place with black epoxy, turning them into fixed length, with no issue.

ATF only cautions that other methods may not meet their (unspecified) criteria for bumpstock deactivation -oops, I meant

destruction.

 

"They came for bump stocks, and I didn't speak up, because I didn't own a bump stock...."

If this doesn't sound familiar, do yourself a favor with some reading.


Edited by mnshooter, 16 February 2019 - 07:48 PM.

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#56 JimB

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 11:26 AM

While Bumb Stocks may not be your cup of tea the government should not be able to accomplish this ex post facto end run around the second amendment, do you remember when street sweepers were made DD's simply because they were black and ugly, there are much better shotguns now out on the market that RE BETTER, FASTER and not DD 

 

I know this gets crazy but I can explain it:

 

How it works is EVERYTHING ​over a .50 bore diameter can be subject to a "sporting use" determination 

 

This works both ways

For example a .600 Nitro Express has a sporting exemption

 

What Clinton did via Bentsen was to take it the other way

as Street Sweepers and the USAS were over .50 in bore diameter Treasury was within the law to determine that they were not sporting, whatever that means LOL

Truth is ATFE could ban any shotgun they were inclined to declare as non sporting with a pen stroke

I was pretty sure this would happen to Saiga 12 conversions under Obama but nope instead the bureau restated their position otherwise.

 

Maybe gun banning Barr will do it as are new AG

Always said it usually takes a Democrat to create bad law initially but more often than not it takes some statist Republican tool to actually enforce it.


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#57 JimB

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 11:32 AM

I

 

Of course the flip side may be Trump did exactly what the democrats asked him to do with effectively complete confiscation, and as draconian as possible,  knowing full well that it would be shot down by the courts when challenged?   Win win for everyone but the liberals and he gets to say he banned them.  If I had a postie lower I'd submit the whole thing to tech branch and ask for a ruling as to whether it was one machine gun or two and see what the response is?  And if mfr's can posses them if form 2'ed as post samples? 

 

I agree if this holds it's an inch and it will result in further demands.  I just wish the hill we were pushing up wasn't necessarily bump stocks?

 

I don't see where it allows for even SOTs to possess them LOL


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#58 JimB

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 05:24 PM

 

giantpune, on 22 Dec 2018 - 10:20, said:
The ruling says nothing about binary triggers. They still aren't machineguns.

The ATF site has instruction for how to destroy bumpstocks. They're very specific down to individual models and manufacturers. They listed like 15 different bumpstocks an not one page about binary triggers.


The other way to "destroy" bump stocks would be to fusion weld the action in numerous ways making the stock solid, but you didn't see that offered did you? Courts have banned some people from drunk driving their cars, but I've not heard of the court ordering their car be sawed in two pieces?

When the 94 ban passed, existing CAR/M4 type stocks were glued in place with black epoxy, turning them into fixed length, with no issue.

ATF only cautions that other methods may not meet their (unspecified) criteria for bumpstock deactivation -oops, I meant

destruction.

 

"They came for bump stocks, and I didn't speak up, because I didn't own a bump stock...."

If this doesn't sound familiar, do yourself a favor with some reading.

another very curious point was the initial era of AR pistols

most guys here probably were not paying attention years ago however they started up as XM177 clones in the late 70s

There was at least one outfit that was knocking out CAR stocks that were solid die cast units in collapsed configuaration

We were building them up with 10 & 11.5" barrels.  I did two of these back then

Then the bureau swapped panties, decided they were actually SBRs

yeah under Republican control

 

Even running a CAR buffer tube sans stock was bad

 

That's all changed and it happened under Obama

 

No, don't like the last President, actually detest him but it was

under his administration Slide Fires were legalized and Trumps where that is trying to be reversed

That's the way it almost always works out


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#59 The Lone Ranger

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 07:51 PM

One of the birdies has been shot down.... I believe March 6 is when the GOA case gets a hearing in MI.

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