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Hyman S. Lebman, Gunsmith To The Outlaws


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I have seen a couple of photos of '07's with 20 rnd. magazines. Let me see if I can figure out how to add a photo and I'll cut and paste them--but they were in threads on this forum-so if you back through the '07 topics you should find them. Never seen a 20 rnd. in person.

 

Might the elusive "factory 20's" have been intended for the military aviation contracts from World War 1--either by France or our fledgling flying corp. for use prior to the introduction of machineguns on scout planes?

 

Regarding Van Meter's 20 rnd. magazines, I wonder if those might have been BAR mags?

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I had always heard there were three 1907s in total - two modified and one not modified - 2 taken from the Hotel Congress and one from a car - but I've never seen all three together in a photo. I wonder if the FBI got a (permanent) loan from Tucson on one of the Lebmans? I was able to determine that the second photo above is from 1961 so Tucson still had them at that time. Funny that it seems there weren't any other Lebman-modified 07s other than these two? At least there are no photos that I've seen.

 

I bet Tucson PD was ticked about the Thompson they loaned out and never got back!

 

Sorry for all this activity - I became obsessed with the Lebman modded 1907s 6 years ago after the Public Enemies movie, then went through some fun times and put all this on the back burner, and now I've become obsessed again.

 

I appreciate all the info.

 

jl7422 - the photo thing was difficult for me as a card carrying Luddite to figure out. I had to attach them first before I could post them. The image icon didn't work for me and in fact froze my screen when I tried to use it..

 

John

Edited by levallois
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At the Dillinger arrest at the 2nd Ave house in Tucson, they found 6- 351 clips ( shot size not listed) 1- 1907 Winchester Self Loading 351 # 46051, 1- 1907 Winchester Self Loading 351, no numbers ( removed) .

The 46051 is the one in Tucson now, so I assume both were the Lebman models & FA.

This is from a hand written receipt from the City of Tucson.

Do have a Dillinger listed one # 41604 but not 100% on where it was, maybe St Paul ?

 

Jl7422, would not be BAR magazines, that was Clyde's weaponry. BAR mags are huge guys, Barrow had a huge mess of them in the death car, I had one from the car, that was part of the evidence file in Shreveport.

 

Double checked Henwood's book, nothing at all about xx 351 mags, not even in variances, army, France, nothing. But ?

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This is the only photo I can find of a larger than 10-round mag. Could it be two 10-round factory mags welded together? The slant of the base of the magazine looks factory to me. This was posted on this website.

post-2828-0-39741500-1444078435_thumb.jpg

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That's the photo I was thinking about--I also seem to remember seeing a picture of one (in what appears to be a museum rack) with a canvas spent-shell catcher over the ejection port. It too might have the oversized mag. A configuration an observer might use in an early World War One dogfight.

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Larry Wack came thru with some interesting information-

 

The Dillinger gang had also stolen a Winchester 1910 SLR 401 from the Auburn PD. These had the 4 shot only mags, where it is ?

 

Van Meter's Winchester SLR was # 46190 and the Thompson had the numbers removed. ( St Paul )

 

The Lebman mini in 38 Super recovered from Dillinger apartment in St Paul was # 13585, had two XX clips with it.

 

The Police 07 shown could of been a magazine someone made for display or use. I remember this picture now. Really doubt the large magazines were factory. Henwood says almost all Police versions were ordered with the 10 shot mags. I guess anyone could of made them , why not.

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Good point.

Lebman had to love doing this, making toys for the " boys" and getting high dollars for it, like a hobby that you are paid for.

 

And , according to Larry Wack's research, they stole a hammerless Colt from the Auburn, Indiana PD, in factory nickel, Jim C.

 

Just saying.

Edited by OCM
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Didn't mean to imply that the magazine in the photo was factory but that perhaps two factory mags were welded together. And I think you're spot-on Jim about Lebman being able to make one of these. He was skilled enough. I'd give a lot to actually see one.

Edited by levallois
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For sure Lebman could of made these, but still would like to see evidence that he did. Finding 6 351 magazines could of been 3 each rifle, high capacity ? Rick Cartledge told me Lebman made his own front grips too, no clue how he would of known this, other then some of the grips on the Colt minis look a bit homemade.

If I'm not mistaken, the 07 that Tucson loaned to the FBI, had no front grip installed , on display. This would of been the Lebman with numbers removed recovered.

Our Gun Hunter group ran across this FBI trading, basically by default, while searching all the Dillinger related Thompsons. S.A. Larry Wack ( retired) was part of the group and could dig this stuff out.

I've been to the Arizonia Historical Society Museum in Tucson, not far from the PD- They have Dillinger items, don't recall seeing any guns or mags, just a repo Thompson for display, BP vest, suitcase... etc.

 

Make one out of two 10s-

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If the two Tucson Lebman's are the only ones - or maybe Baby Face had third when he killed the the two FBI agents in Illinois and maybe Van Meter had a fourth at Little Bohemia or elsewhere too, and they were all newly created, then it's possible the reason that no one has seen the 15-20 round mags for these rifles is that Lebman didn't have a chance to make any for the new 1907s or that he made a very very few high caps? The ones made/sold by GFC later were another thing entirely that had nothing to do with the Lebman 1907s and more to do with guard duty and as patrol rifles - there are accounts of people seeing these although I've yet to find an ad or catalog that lists them for sale. The question is does the Tucson PD have these mags stashed away somewhere, or were they 10-rounders, or sadly were they lost. My son is a Phoenix police officer and I'm going to see if he can get us in to look at the Dillinger 1907s.
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This photo was posted over at the Vintage Semi Auto Rifles forum. Clearest photo of a long magazine that I've seen. Rifle is supposed to be French but can't be one of the WWI rifles as it has all post WWII features.

 

 

post-2828-0-05102800-1444396262_thumb.jpg

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Doubt the Tucson PD has anything stashed- They let my pal a, 40 year veteran of law enforcement and his son & wife, also law enforcement people, in to privately inspect the guns. He's also a good outlaw historian, Western, 1930s era and has family in Tucson, in law enforcement.

They were very open and accommodating to them on the visit.

You may have a better chance then the average Joe- The guns are on a double security system in the cases.

 

Let me check the list of weapons recovered at Little Bo, see what it might say about 07s recovered. I think I have that on file.

 

The Police Rifle- Henwood indicates , with the introduction of the Police rifle in 1934, all standard models after that, cloned into the police model with out the bayonet. At the same time ( 1936) Remington came out with their model 81 police rifle that was offered with a 15 shot magazine, made by Hillyard Chemical Company, owner Newton Hillyard and certified gun-nut. Hillyard then got involved in marketing police guns thru Peace Officers Equipment Company, promoting Remington and for some reason the Model 10 Winchester . Hillyard hired G.C. "Buckshot: Wilson as the salesman and with Remington as the exhibition shooter. Huge territory. Police guns sold around the country, Nebraska Safety patrol, Florida Sheriffs etc.

 

At least Remington had a 15 shot magazine, but this was 1936.

 

OCM

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Sandy,

 

Did your friends ask specifically about the magazines? That's what I meant when I wrote stashed. Not trying to hide but just left in storage because nobody ever asks about them.

 

John

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No they did not, I don't think it crossed their mind. You would think they would be on display- my pal, Sheriff Hudson said if you want him to call the contact there, and ask, he certainly will, as they were very accommodating and got along well.
I'd like to know too. I did bring up your quest on a 15-20 shot magazine to S Hudson, he said it makes sense. I agree.
We were talking about why the grips are moved in a lot of the photos we see. Could be the front aluminum stock had the grip bolts stripped out. On my trip to Tucson years ago, I visited the PD to see how Lebman attached the grip. One look into the case was all it took. He made an aluminum front on the gun. It also was sporting a 5 shot mag and no front grip.
One thing Tom might do is change the color of the repros to an original looking mahogany color instead of brown. A geeky thing you know.

Edited by OCM
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I don't know Ron, last I heard he was planning another run.

 

OCM

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Sandy,

 

If Sheriff Hudson wouldn't mind asking about the magazines puns with the rifles then that would be extremely helpful. Thanks !!

 

John

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He's on it, let you know what he comes up with.
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The officer in charge of the outlaw guns said they ( Tucson PD ) have never heard of or seen any other magazines other then what's in the guns. No long magazines. Also the Winchesters have never been fired since they got them in 1934. I was under the impression the had , story mistake. The Thompsons had. Everything is as stock as received in 1934- The Auburn Thompson, # 8946, was torched by the FBI after they had loaned it to them, now back with Auburn.

The Winchesters in Tucson are ( Lebman conversion) # 4601 and another that appears untouched, # 21218. I'm guessing the @ 21218 is the Peru, Indiana gun and the other Lebman conversion with numbers removed, is the FBI gun, which means it probably has been decommissioned.

Sheriff Hudson got all this on the phone today. Sent me some nice close-ups of the serial numbers too.

 

OCM

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Here is possibly ( I think probably ) the two Tucson Lebman converted Winchesters, recovered in Tucson. One # 46051 still resides in Tucson, the second,( numbers removed) is/was in the FBI collection sporting a 10 shot magazine- If you compare the " wear" marks on the front of the forearms, they appear to have different wearing of the paint. Also, the biggy here, is the one in the FBI display has a mounting screw drilled thru the buttstock to mount it- That's how they did it in those days, look at the other weapons on display.

The other one, shown in the FBI collection here, if my old memory serves me correct, is listed as a Baby Face Nelson Winchester 07. Full auto, probably not, with the missing front grip and no muzzle break.

 

OCM

dillenger.jpg

winchester295.jpg

Edited by OCM
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Jim C.

 

You might want to change your " supplier " - I think he/she is cutting your Ohio "meds" with like horse tranquilizer.

With all the cabbage you are making from L drum sales, you might want to research a better , legit , source. Maybe a trip to Colorado or something ??? Or one of " those " States.

Wink-wink-

 

OCM

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