Effectiveness, MP-40 versus Thompson

[TSMGguy]

Was just thinking about the comments made by author Don Burgett in his classic book, "Currahee", about the relative effectiveness of the MP-40 versus the Thompson submachine gun in WWII ETO combat. Burgett said that he considered a man carrying an MP-40 to be unarmed. He related that a man hit with an MP-40 probably went to the aid station, and was back in combat the same day, but that a man hit with a TSMG went down and stayed down. He said a burst from a Thompson would lift a big man right off of his feet. He considered the Thompson to be a devastating weapon for close combat.

 

What made the Thompson so good, in the right hands (And Burgett would certainly have known)? Think about the relative weights of metal thrown. Consider the 230 gr .45 ball bullet used by the TSMG, versus the approximately 124 grain 9mm bullet of the MP-40. Rate of fire for a M1928A1 (or M1) TSMG was a theoretical 750 rounds per minute. If it could actually fire that 750 rounds, total bullet weight would be 172,500 grains. The MP-40 ROF was about 600 RPM, for about 74,400 grains. There are 7,000 grains in a pound.

 

If a MP-40 magazine was fully loaded to 32 rounds, total bullet weight would be about 3,968 grains, versus the 6,900 grains in a fully loaded TSMG XXX mag.

 

Burgett related that he preferred to fire short bursts of 3-5 rounds in combat, always firing from the hip. He practiced frequently. A five round burst from TSMG would throw 1,150 grains, versus 620 for the MP40. Bigger bullet, so more stopping power.

Edited November 6, 2017 by TSMGguy

[ppgcowboy]

I think there was a video about the mg42's bark being worse than its bite. I would not believe that either. Getting shot really makes your mom worry.

[Sandman1957]

There's a reason why the 1911 is so favored and lasted so long in the US Military. The reason was stopping power. I've heard alot of veterans say if you shot someone with a .45 they at least had to get back up if they did not get killed straight out. The subguns were even better because of the longer barrel. My uncle talked of shooting some Japs in the Philippines during a close in assault (he was a tanker). He said all the guys he hit went down hard. One guy was charging him, running head on at him and the burst knocked the guy over backwards. He was impressed and liked the gun. FWIW, that was the day he was awarded a bronze star for saving the guys in a stalled Sherman tank stuck in a creek.

 

Don't know about all the fancy numbers; but, only hits count. Hits by bigger bullets are better than hits by smaller bullets. The 45 is twice that of most 9mms. That why shooting 9mm FMJ is not real good to take someone out. Main reason many PDs got rid of it. Plus P hollow points are good, but 9mm FMJ out of a pistol is underpowered regarding knock down power.

 

 

Photo in Training before deploying to the Philippines.

 

[jim c 351]

The idea of a 45 physically lifting one off his feet and knocking him to the ground defies the laws of physics. However the pain of being hit could cause someone to buckle over in pain.

I never shot a human but I've kill about 20 deer, most with a 30-06. If the bullet doesn't hit bone the deer will run about 50 yards before collapsing, even with a heart shot.

A story that sticks in my mind about the MP40 appeared in the 96 or 97 Gun Digest, written by Bob Bell.

My Bell was watching from a distance as some infantry were moving across a field toward a woods. A German opened fire with a MP40 and hit a soldier with about 8 rds stitched from belt to neck, fatal for shore . Before the soldier dropped he fired one shot from his M1, killing the German.

Mr Bell said he felt sorry, in a strange way, for the German. He did everything he was trained to do but still died.

That's all I know about MP 40s.

Jim C

[huggytree]

big fan of .45 subguns....with the speed of my Mac 10 i can topple over a 75lb steel full size silhouette with a 16" long base...wish i had the video i took of it still....blast it with 30 rounds and the huge/heavy target just goes right over....it doesnt work with the thompson...needs more RPM... with high rpm 9mm it does nothing....

 

with a lage mac 10/31 upper or a BRP suomi there is almost 0 kick...its almost like shooting a .22.....accuracy for inexperienced may over come bullet weight....the thompson isnt the easiest gun for beginners due to its weight and extra long stock

 

depends if were talking 15 yards or 30+ yards though....at 15 yards you cant miss with anything.....for me the thompson sights arent made for middle age eyes...im near blind trying to use that little notch....

Edited November 6, 2017 by huggytree

[ppgcowboy]

Agreed, hits matter, would not want to get hit with either. Love the 45 though.

[thirtyround]

The Thompson - LaGarde Report

 

https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/TLGR/tlgr.html

 

* 7000 grains in a pound

Edited November 6, 2017 by thirtyround

[hawksnest]

The LeGarde report reads like it was something prepared by Josef Mengele.

[Adg105200]

A .45 is definitely going to have more downrange energy than a 9mm. I guess the chances are higher with a 45 for knocking someone down, although a burst fired from either that hits bone would knock you down either way.

 

Andrew

[geefal]

Just gonna relate my personal experience here.

 

Been shot with a 9mm. Guess I am a weeeny, but pretty much took all the desire to do much more right the f$ck outa me.

 

Never been shot with a .45, but honestly, can't imagine it would have made much freaking difference.

 

Own both Thompson and MP40. Would feel undergunned carrying either.

 

Thanks to jim c for pointing out the physics aspect of how a handgun round is not going to "knock you off your feet". I always do that in these conversations and have to waste tons of time explaining to people that the impact force in no greater than the recoil force. If the recoil doesn't knock you over, the bullet won't knock them over either. If you can't understand this, look it up on google, am tired of trying to educate people on this.

[TSMGguy]

The force on firing imparted to the gun and the bullet are equal. The Thompson weighs in excess of 11 lbs. loaded, so recoil isn't much. The bullet weighs only 230 grains, so the force felt on impact is very great indeed.

 

The "I'd rather be hit with" argument is beyond inane.

Edited November 12, 2017 by TSMGguy

[jim c 351]

If recoil isn't much because the Thompson weighs 11 lbs, then impact won't be much with a human that weighs 200 lbs.

 

Jim C

[smkummer]

I sure do like the lesser weight of the MP40 and either lighter ammo or carry more ammo. I still run 45 in subgun matches and I am slower with 8 mags. of 45 compared to 8 mags. of 9mm.

[gunner69skmc]

I used to compete at Knob Creek, Classical Subgun, and placed in the top 4 several times with my MP-40. Only won in the bowling pin match with the .45 ACP. And it was much harder to get the hits with a .45ACP. I doubt the "average shooter" would get a high score with the .45ACP. You got to Hit E'm to Get e'm..........

[johnsonlmg41]

If the "knock down" rumors were true Richard Davis would have knocked himself over many, many times. Watch his "man shoots himself in bulletproof vest" on you tube since I have no clue on how to link it here.

I actually did knock a deer over with a shotgun slug once, at maybe 15 yards. Funny part is I went over as well in the opposite direction, unfortunately we both got up and one of us ran away, while the other was too rattled to get off a second shot. The key to knock down is zero penetration which is why I'd never consider a .45 for self defense.....no expansion, no penetration.

[Adg105200]

If the "knock down" rumors were true Richard Davis would have knocked himself over many, many times. Watch his "man shoots himself in bulletproof vest" on you tube since I have no clue on how to link it here.

I actually did knock a deer over with a shotgun slug once, at maybe 15 yards. Funny part is I went over as well in the opposite direction, unfortunately we both got up and one of us ran away, while the other was too rattled to get off a second shot. The key to knock down is zero penetration which is why I'd never consider a .45 for self defense.....no expansion, no penetration.

Russian Spetsnaz have to train with vests and be shot at fairly close range. No one gets knocked over there. You might be able to knock someone over that is wearing a vest... With a 12 guage slug.

 

Andrew

[1952HRA]

I'm not going to get to much into the discussion because I never shot 9mm and 45acp side by side, the hole thing about nocking over someone with eather 9mm or 45 is all going to come down to if they are expecting to get hit, if they aren't expecting it there is a very good chance of nocking them over and the people expecting to get hit (like people get shot in vests) are less likely to get nocked over

[Bridgeport28A1]

If the "knock down" rumors were true Richard Davis would have knocked himself over many, many times. Watch his "man shoots himself in bulletproof vest" on you tube since I have no clue on how to link it here.

I actually did knock a deer over with a shotgun slug once, at maybe 15 yards. Funny part is I went over as well in the opposite direction, unfortunately we both got up and one of us ran away, while the other was too rattled to get off a second shot. The key to knock down is zero penetration which is why I'd never consider a .45 for self defense.....no expansion, no penetration.

 

I had the opportunity to witness first hand Richard Davis shoot himself wearing a Second Chance vest taken he had taken off the production line during a tour. He did not knock himself over. He was not using a Thompson, but a large bore revolver. He was definitely an interesting person.