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Colt 1921A captured and re-captured. Any sources of records?


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Hello-

Does any one know of, or can direct me to a source of information on tracking down the history of Colt 1921A's that would have been in British hands during WWII?

I have a customer who has inherited from his grandfather who served in WWII in the European theater, a 1921A that " he said he took off a German soldier".

Not knowing anymore, you could surmise the Thompson was captured from the British ( I have told him where to look for proof marks ) then re-captured from the Germans by his grandfather.

My interest is in knowing that while some Colt's were still being shipped in early 1941, and that the majority of Lend Lease TSMG's would have been the later model 1928A1, what is the likely delivery of a 1921A to the British? Would there be any records on either side of the pond that would track the Thompson into what unit it went into? Knowing that would narrow down it's capture point, the Fall of France, the raid on St. Nazaire, Dieppe?

If only the Thompson could tell it's story..

 

 

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You may be interested in the following thread regarding Colt TSMGs finding their way into German Wehrmacht hands. The prospect of these being appropriated from the French stock of Colt TSMGs after the June 22, 1940 surrender or in 1942 after the Germans took over the Vichy Government in South of France is the prevailing theory. That your customer's changing hands Colt 1921A could have been shipped in early 1941 is unlikely. My thread that Savage in the Summer of 1941 reconditioned sea water damaged TSMGs from a 1940 order that was not shipped until February, 1941..... and may have included Colt Navy models.... is very much in flux.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20404&page=2&hl=%2Bgerman+%2Bcolt+%2Bthompsons&do=findComment&comment=176246

 

Tom Davis Jr's book "Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story" is the current go-to authority on the disposition of Savage/Colt TSMGs exported in 1940.

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To answer a few questions, both the Thompson's owner and I live in the USA. While the gun is registered, his grandfather was ill advised years ago, that even registered it needed to be deactivated which he had done by brazing the barrel closed. The gun has transferred to the grandson, who wishes to return it to firing condition.

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If the story of this 21A is true, which I am not doubting what the grandfather told the grandson, I would say it probably has the most unique history of all 21s. Does the grandson have any pics of the grandfather with the Thompson while in theatre? I would rather that Thompson than one used by any famous gangster!
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Arthur, thank you for pointing me in the direction of " Great Britain-The Tommy Gun Story", after reading it, I found this online in a small arms review article online..

 

"Late in 1939, with a pending French national emergency, weapons were needed quickly. The French government put preferences aside, and ordered 3,000 Thompsons off the shelf, all of which were delivered in early 1940. Most were Model of 1921 A’s (without Cutts compensator), along with a few previously reconfigured Model of 1928s"

 

Further in the article it mentions that the TSMG's we delivered to the French with no sling swivels, and that they chose to use Berthier rifle swivels, which from what I recall seeing the Thompson is what it had. Which would add to the belief then that it is one of the French gun's.

 

Halftrack, agreed, that is an unusual 1921A story.

Edited by Kriegswaffensieben
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Kriegswaffensieben,

Based on your description, the 1921A Colt in question sounds like one of the 3000 French Colt's. If the vertical fore grip is equipped with a Berthier sling swivel, this is an almost a certainty. I don't know of any proof marks that were applied by the French or German governments. If this Colt was ever in British inventory, a Broad Arrow mark may be present. See the top of page 116 in, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story, for examples of this marking. While not definitive, the serial numbers of most Colt's acquired by the French were in the 9000 and higher serial number range. However, exceptions do exist.

 

The deactivation of the Colt years ago may have been for many reasons. Some states do not allow live machine guns. Some only deactivated guns. There have also been collectors who did not want to own live guns. In addition, years ago Colt Thompsons (and all properly registered machine guns) were no where near as valuable as they are today. Yes, laws and times do change. The most important thing is this Colt is most likely on a Form 5 and eligible to be reactivated. Choose carefully who to do the work. Every registered Colt Thompson is worth a lot of money.

 

I am currently doing a story on another French Colt that was legally returned to the USA after World War II by a veteran as a souvenir. It is a live gun that has been retained by the veterans family. Until this post, it was the only known French Colt in the USA. If you or the owner would like to discuss this potential French Colt and possibly have it included in my story, contact me at: tkd5501@fuse.net

 

I can also offer suggestions on how and who to perform the reactivation.

 

Tom Davis, Jr.

Union, Kentucky

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Can we have a serial number. It is also possible to have been an IRA gun that was captured by the British and used in the war.

A SN might help in tracking at least a time period of it crossing the pond.

 

Tracie

 

Hello Tracie-

To simplify things, I will contact the owner, and make him aware of this forum and this topic. In that way, he can benefit from the knowledge here, and directly answer any questions you or others may have.

 

Thank you, and all for your input on this subject and Thompson history in general, as we approach the centennial of the legacy.

Edited by Kriegswaffensieben
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riegswaffensieben,

Based on your description, the 1921A Colt in question sounds like one of the 3000 French Colt's. If the vertical fore grip is equipped with a Berthier sling swivel, this is an almost a certainty. I don't know of any proof marks that were applied by the French or German governments. If this Colt was ever in British inventory, a Broad Arrow mark may be present. See the top of page 116 in, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story, for examples of this marking. While not definitive, the serial numbers of most Colt's acquired by the French were in the 9000 and higher serial number range. However, exceptions do exist.

 

The deactivation of the Colt years ago may have been for many reasons. Some states do not allow live machine guns. Some only deactivated guns. There have also been collectors who did not want to own live guns. In addition, years ago Colt Thompsons (and all properly registered machine guns) were no where near as valuable as they are today. Yes, laws and times do change. The most important thing is this Colt is most likely on a Form 5 and eligible to be reactivated. Choose carefully who to do the work. Every registered Colt Thompson is worth a lot of money.

 

I am currently doing a story on another French Colt that was legally returned to the USA after World War II by a veteran as a souvenir. It is a live gun that has been retained by the veterans family. Until this post, it was the only known French Colt in the USA. If you or the owner would like to discuss this potential French Colt and possibly have it included in my story, contact me at: tkd5501@fuse.net

 

I can also offer suggestions on how and who to perform the reactivation.

 

Tom Davis, Jr.

Union, Kentucky

Hello Tom-

Thank you for your reply to this thread. Per my reply to Tracie's post in reply to this topic, I will make the owner aware of this forum and topic, as well as your generous offer to discuss his heirloom, in that way he can benefit from the knowledge here, answering and asking questions directly. From what he has told me, I do not think this is the same 1921A you are doing a story on, it would be a 2nd survivor.

 

Dave

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