New Theory on Thompsons From Russia

[azboater]

Other than the staged photo of Soviet sailors with 1928 TSMGs, there isn't much photographic evidence that the Soviets even sporadically used the TSMG on the Eastern front in 1941, 1942, 1943...

Why would the Soviets at the conclusion of WWII spend the time to strip down unissued weapons to the last component and then assemble these parts into a complete weapon at some later date? Do the parts take up less space than assembled TSMGs?

Another photograph for you, Tovarich....

[bustagutt]

Not a meteorite, neighbor's kid's ball.

Did noticed my walnut firewood is stamped either S or M. I know what the S means. The M?

[reconbob]

I don't think the guns were sent to Russia, then sent back to U.S., rebuilt, and sent

back to Russia again.

But the more we get into this it becomes clear that the part of the story that these

guns were sitting un-used, etc. is hogwash.

Perhaps there were 2 lots of Thompsons - one lot in premium condition that could

have been the "un-used" Russian guns, and a second lot that could have been left in

Europe after WW2 and doled out to any number of countries - Greece, Yugoslavia, etc

as part of the Marshall Plan. This second lot would be those used by armies or fighters

unknown which went thru the rebuilding/renumbering process.

Eventually they were "discovered" by the agents of an arms dealer (for years the big

boys have had agents scouring the world looking for any old arms or ammo) and

purchased from whatever Ministry of Defense or other agency that had them and

sold to dealers who in turn sold them to collectors.

One thing that is amazing - that so many of these guns were stored for 60+ years

and were maintained in virtually new condition. I have trouble keeping my own guns

from rusting!

 

Bob

[m60mgman]

My Savage 1928a1 parts kit looks unissued. It's a recent purchase from IMA.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

@azboater

 

And when it came to photographing Soviet troops armed with TSMGs in actual combat, Pravda had to wait as the TSMGs were being kept in reserve in case the Huns threatened to invade Kolguyev.

[gijive]

Bob,

 

I like your last post. That is all I have ever been trying to get across the past few years this has been discussed. Somewhere, somehow, arms dealers in Europe found lots of old Thompsons that were sitting in storage or procured from foreign governments that we sold them to originally. Heck, we don't know if all of these were actually shipped overseas during WWII. The U.S. sold many surplus guns to foreign governments after WWII.

 

I am not contradicting any previous posters that mentioned that many U.S. military guns underwent extensive rebuilds from piles of parts since WWII, I know that. I don't believe that happened with the majority of the Thompson kits that have shown up in recent years. Many originally looked brand new, but some had storage issues, e.g. rust, pitting etc. Others, as Tom Davis pointed out, had grip frames replaced and new numbers inscribed to match the receiver. If the theory that all the guns were taken apart to the smallest component thrown in a pile and put back together randomly, none of the grip frames and receivers would match, or at least just a small majority. That just isn't the case.

 

I'm happy to see some logical discussion finally being applied to this topic, maybe we'll find out the "real" answer someday.

[Motorcar]

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4523&hl=+russian%20+parts

 

See post #15 photos.

[DZelenka]

Any idea what is electro penciled on the side of this gun?

Edited August 27, 2015 by DZelenka

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

@motorcar

 

The question might be whether these stocks, barrels and frames were removed from complete TSMGs or were they extra parts sent along with the TSMGs during WWII? Would spare parts barrels have the Cutts already attached to them? If the Soviets had thousands of TSMGs in the condition they received them from the USA at the conclusion of hostilities, wouldn't they have made them available to Communist forces around the globe before they managed to give away all those Kalashnikovs?

Edited August 28, 2015 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[Motorcar]

these stocks, barrels and frames were removed from complete TSMGs

 

AF, I think you hit the nail on the head since these pictures were taken on our shores at time of importation. My parts kit still had the nose of the receiver on the barrel with the grip mount.

 

All of the original WW2 replacement barrels Bob (Phili-Ord) has are new in the wrap never having had a comp installed.

[bug]

Not a meteorite, neighbor's kid's ball.

Did noticed my walnut firewood is stamped either S or M. I know what the S means. The M?

 

M on grips is Strombeck-Becker of Moline IL

 

R on ball is Rawlings...

[bug]

Any idea what is electro penciled on the side of this gun?

 

All I can make out is NB ATF

[azboater]

@azboater

 

And when it came to photographing Soviet troops armed with TSMGs in actual combat, Pravda had to wait as the TSMGs were being kept in reserve in case the Huns threatened to invade Kolguyev.

Arthur,

Have you ever seen a photo of Soviets using the TSMG in combat other than what appears to be staged? I have not, just curious if you have...

[ThompsonCrazy]

Any idea what is electro penciled on the side of this gun?

Those markings are European deactivation proofs.

 

I picked up 2 1928 kits from IMA back in 2003 or when ever they first became available. One barrel's bore was new looking while the second was pitted in the grooves and rifling was visibly worn. I would say the second barrel was junk.

 

Also they both had that pesky black paint in spots where the finish was thin. Does that point to British use or did other countries use the black paint method for rust, pitting or just thin/bare metal areas?

 

I don't have any experience with Russian rebuilt weapons but the k98's come to mind. Those that were force marched were electro penciled so where there any other countries that actually used stamped number characters to match parts? If they were tying to fool the U.S. Market with stamped numbers they surely wouldn't have left one or two original number sets and crossed them out.

 

I don't believe these weapons were 100% Russian. I do believe some of the deactivated ones we see listed overseas in damn near new condition with matching numbers may have come from Russia but these kits we are referring to came from another country that either used them to a varying degree or received them second hand from the U.S. In the same varying degree.

 

Pacific theater bordering countries based on the predominantly large percentage of the samples being 1928?

 

It's fun t think about but I haven't lost any sleep over it.

 

TC

[Freddy]

Hi everybody,

this topic has a lot of feedback, I am impressed by the discussion. Here are a few more points to substantiate my theory:

-> During the war, indeed Thompsons were refurbished in the US. There were contracts with AO to do it. Refurbished Thompsons have AO-44 or AO-45 stamps. (see American Thunder II). None of the observed guns from Eastern Europe have such stampings.

-> There are many sequentially numbered guns in the Eastern European lots. (e.g. in this thread http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10382 you can see it).
One interesting sample: The user Schatzperson mentions two Thompson M1A1s 393,940/1. A friend owns 393937 (deactivated). It is in pristine condition. It is highly plausible if not the only likely explanation that they were shipped from the assembly line. Interesting, that M1A1 393937 has a very very worn magazine-catch while the rest of the parts is new. Showing that at one point it had been rebuilt. You can only replace the magazine catch when pivot plate etc. have been removed. That means that at one point, that pristine M1A1 393937 was disassembled entirely (at least the frame) and re-assembled, putting a worn magazine catch in. The buttstock assembly on that specimen, by the way, is also rather used while the metal retains about 99% original bluing showing that the wood had been replaced at one point, further suggesting that the gun had been rebuilt.

Explanation on worn parts:

On all the deactivated guns I saw, there have been two kinds of "worn" parts:

1. parts that had rusted due to improper storage. They almost always had the rust removed in a rough way and were then painted with a kind of black paint to hide the bare metal.
2. parts that showed legitimate wear from use, they are more rare than the ones mentioned above but still around.

My theory:
Wherever these guns were sent (Russia or some other Eastern European country) a few were used (as proven by the picture). Due to humidity / improper storage, some were rusty or damaged. At some point, therefore, there was an order probably to disassemble all of them (new and used) into parts and re-assemble them, sorting out unservicable parts. The buttstock-assemblies, for example, should be matching from factory, but they aren't on these guns. The Russian rebuilt K98s are an interesting example, because they were disassembled and re-built as well as we know.

Parts kits vs. deactivated guns:
I am pretty certain that the parts kits offered in the US were from the same source as the deactivated guns in Germany. The re-stamped numbers on the frames have the same font as those on the deactivated guns judging from the photos, and it's in the same position. It makes sense that there is one large "source" of those delivering to different countries in different forms of deactivation.

Conclusion:
I do not know where these guns are from, but they are almost certainly from Eastern Europe as most sources (sellers, the thread mentioned above) state that. They were probably new when sent over; and were probably sent over during the course of production, starting with 1928a1 with Lyman sight until M1A1. That is explained by so many pristine samples and sequential serial numbers. Some of them were used, others were damaged due to improper storage. At one point in time there was likely one or multiple rebuilding program where all guns, regardless of damage, were taken apart into parts and rebuilt. Worn / rusty parts were "repaired" wherever possible. That explains otherwise pristine guns with some worn parts. And some pristine guns that have non-matching numbers on frame and receiver. Some workers probably paid attention to keeping frame and receiver together, others didn't, and those guns were re-stamped with the new serial number on the frame. I have observed multiple deactivated guns where both frame and receiver show not the slightest sign of wear - still they included some "used" parts and were not matching numbers.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Freddy

[bustagutt]

Bug, thank you.

[swat12]

This is my first post on this forum. I really do not speak English, so use the online translator. I live in Ukraine (former republic of the Soviet Union). I am very interested in the topic of Thompson. But according to the laws of Ukraine, I have no right to be the owner of the firearm. But there is the concept of the ММГ (макет массо-габаритный) - deactivated weapons. So in Ukraine marked deactivated weapon.ММГ ППТ - макет массо-габаритный пистолета-пулемета системы Томпсона (the layout of the weight and sized of Thompson submachine gun)

[DZelenka]

This is my first post on this forum. I really do not speak English, so use the online translator. I live in Ukraine (former republic of the Soviet Union). I am very interested in the topic of Thompson. But according to the laws of Ukraine, I have no right to be the owner of the firearm. But there is the concept of the ММГ (макет массо-габаритный) - deactivated weapons. So in Ukraine marked deactivated weapon.ММГ ППТ - макет массо-габаритный пистолета-пулемета системы Томпсона (the layout of the weight and sized of Thompson submachine gun)

So, does this mean that the receiver I pictured was deactivated in Ukraine or one of the other former Soviet republics?

[Annihilator]

I know a dealer here in Luxembourg that had a few hundreds of this Thompsons and they came from the Ukraine for sure.

There were even Thompsons with british proof marks, Savage ones in the 150.000 serial number range, originally marked 1928 and then restamped Model US 1928 A1, so they might have even been sent from the UK (and refurbished in the UK) ?

 

They crates they are shipped have russian markings and a particular greenish colour, i wonder if these are the original shipping crates or if they have been repainted ?

 

Lots of M1 and M1A1 coming from the Ukraine have matching upper and lower receivers, but i think the lowers have been numbered later as they have not the same lettering, and i have seen a matching numbers M1A1 with an upper Savage receiver and a lower Auto ordnance grip. The few original M1A1 i have seen from the battle of the bulge (not many are around, i must admit) NEVER had the lower numbered to the upper receiver.

 

I have seen barrels replaced on the 1928A1's, non aligned with the index markings, but only once drilled for the compensator pin, so they put new barrels on a few of them

 

And then there are a lot of Thompsons coming from former Yougoslavia, but i have only seen M1 and M1A1's and they generally have seen some heavy use. These are distributed by a dealer in Austria. I saw them there by the hundreds also., but not in shipping crates as from the Ukraine

[swat12]

swat12,

Considering where you live, I think your government better get its head out of its a$$ and start passing out machine guns to all citizens over 17 years old.

If they don't you will once again be a republic of the Soviet Union.

Then you will be obeying Russian gun laws.

Jim C

Jim, I did not want to be here to discuss political issues. moreover, I was born in the USSR. Let's talk here about Thompson.

 

 

 

This is my first post on this forum. I really do not speak English, so use the online translator. I live in Ukraine (former republic of the Soviet Union). I am very interested in the topic of Thompson. But according to the laws of Ukraine, I have no right to be the owner of the firearm. But there is the concept of the ММГ (макет массо-габаритный) - deactivated weapons. So in Ukraine marked deactivated weapon.ММГ ППТ - макет массо-габаритный пистолета-пулемета системы Томпсона (the layout of the weight and sized of Thompson submachine gun)

So, does this mean that the receiver I pictured was deactivated in Ukraine or one of the other former Soviet republics?

I think you are mistaken a bit. First, some firms bought serviceable guns and deactivate it. Deactivation has cut the barrel, bolt, pin and sometimes some other parts. Then do the marking. IMA then bought the gun and deactivate them according to the laws of the United States. In the near future I will try to show photo deactivated Thompson of my modest collections.

[Freddy]

I just edited my initial post to include some info from a post I did on page 2, so all the info about my theory is now in the first post...

@ Anihhilator: Very interesting about the numbers on the M1A1 that probably also have re-stamped frames to be numbers matching. That would be a further proof about the theory, that they were rebuilt at some point and then force-matched if the original frame wasn't attached - or if the frame was unnumbered in case of the M1A1.

[DZelenka]

 

 

 

 

This is my first post on this forum. I really do not speak English, so use the online translator. I live in Ukraine (former republic of the Soviet Union). I am very interested in the topic of Thompson. But according to the laws of Ukraine, I have no right to be the owner of the firearm. But there is the concept of the ММГ (макет массо-габаритный) - deactivated weapons. So in Ukraine marked deactivated weapon.ММГ ППТ - макет массо-габаритный пистолета-пулемета системы Томпсона (the layout of the weight and sized of Thompson submachine gun)

So, does this mean that the receiver I pictured was deactivated in Ukraine or one of the other former Soviet republics?

I think you are mistaken a bit. First, some firms bought serviceable guns and deactivate it. Deactivation has cut the barrel, bolt, pin and sometimes some other parts. Then do the marking. IMA then bought the gun and deactivate them according to the laws of the United States. In the near future I will try to show photo deactivated Thompson of my modest collections.

If the gun was deactivated outside of the former Soviet Union, why would it be engraved in Russian with the letters for deactivated firearm?

 

I would be interested in seeing pictures of your collection.

 

Dan

[Freddy]

@DZelenka: The gun was first deactivated in Ukraine - by deactivating bolt and barrel. It was then inscribed in cyrillic on the receiver to mark it as "deactivated". Its receiver was still intact as in Ukraine deactivated guns can apparently have intact receivers. When it was imported into the US, the receiver was cut up - but the inscription has nothing to do with the receiver being cut.

[buzz]

Interesting thread

[bug]

Freddy, Do you have any idea when that gun entered the US? I don't know when that method of demill was acceptable for import.

 

Bob D