Current Registered, DEWAT Value ?

[mgvince]

What would be a reasonable offer on a DEWAT 1928A1, AO Brigeport with Savage frame. Reblued. Is said to have a plug in the chamber with a small weld and a small tack weld on barrel to receiver. Owner says "10 minutes with a dremel is all it needs" I know, so He says.

 

This was done in the 50's. Late AO gun. Smooth barrel "L" sight. Owner was asking top dollar but now has asked me to make an offer. I'm sure he will still want quite a bit for it tho.

 

With prices continually rising what is a gun like this worth? I would want to see it in hand before any deal would be made, but it would be a long drive to see it.

 

It is form 5 registered

 

Vince

Edited November 15, 2014 by mgvince

[james m]

Firtst and foremost question:
Is it registered as a DEWAT?
Jim

[mgvince]

Yes form 5 registered

[reconbob]

You have to go see it. OK, maybe it does just have a plug in the barrel, then again maybe

its a horrible warped, bent welded receiver in addition to the plug in the barrel, I have seen 3

such guns in the last year. Two of them were welded at the right rear of the ejection port causing

the receiver to warp/bend towards the weld and were pretty much beyond recovery for anything

other than being a blaster.

 

Bob

[johnsonlmg41]

I pay 12-15,000 for them. EVERYTHING is repairable for the right price. HTH

[reconbob]

How do you repair a receiver:

 

- that has a very poor pitted weld about 1/4" wide behind the ejection port causing the

receiver to bend 0.05" - 0.06" from the rear of the ejection port forward. In other words

if you put the left side on a surface plate the front face of the right sider is 1/16" above the

plate. Basically the receiver is shaped like a banana.

 

- has been ground/polished so that it is the same width as the trigger frame

 

- has been welded thru the barrel thread. The barrel has been forced on, but the thread

is no good

 

- has been engraved with hand stamp engraving in an attempt to duplicate the original

engraving which has been ground off

 

How are you going to restore the entire receiver to its original width? (Its about 0.025"

undersized)

 

How are you going to straighten it?

 

How are you going to repair the bad welds to the rear of the receiver and thru the barrel

thread?

 

Just curious....

 

Bob

[laurencen]

guessing you could use fairy dust,

[giantpanda4]

Bob makes the best point - see the gun first, just like any other gun purchase. Especially since what makes the Dewat a Dewat could really be so many different things.

Recently there have been several Dewat M1s sold at Rock Island Auction. IIRC, they went all for $12K until the last one, that went for $13K. Some had matching serial numbers, some did not. Of course you had to add up to 20% Bidders Premium.

So assuming they are repairable, the prices mentioned are reasonable.

Add the price of a parts kit, you have a good shooter when done for less than I have seen shooting condition guns.

It is a crap shoot, all depends on the method they dewatted it. Your description says maybe go for it. Put in a low ball offer and see.... maybe they are fishing - or they saw the RIAC auction!

[laurencen]

what am I missing, a dewat for 12K? is it worth this price because it can possibly be brought back to functional or just to have? you can get a good parts kit for 1500, add a dummy reciever and is this not the same as a dewat?. sorry I do not see how it can be worth this kind of money

[MrBill]

laurencen Its worth 12-14K because it is registered on a form 5 and can legally be brought back to a live gun. Look at the price of dealer sample Thompson's compared to Thompson's transferable on a form 4 ! GCA act of 1986.......

[TD.]

Any NFA item that is papered has value. How much is always the question. NFA items exist in an artificial market because there are only a finite number available for civilian ownership. Should the law ever change, that artificial market will disappear and junk will be junk again. For the gun in question the change of finish is more important to me than it being a dewat. Once the finish is changed it will always be shooter grade - period. Complete matching Colt's with 80% finish and original barrels used to be shooter grade. Now they are collectible and have enjoyed a good rise in value. Re-blued Colt's are still shooter grade.

 

I would be careful buying a dewat for the reasons provided by reconbob. The price would have to justify the risk. You really need to know what you are doing. However, even if it is an easy re-activation, do not end up having more money in a reactivated dewat than you would have had if you would have purchased a shooter grade Form 4 gun from the beginning. Do not ignore the recent auction prices. 12K seems to be the top of the market for this type of adventure.

[laurencen]

was not aware a dewat gun could be brought back in service, all the dewats here are so heavily welded there is nothing salvagable other than the furniture and screws, and because the de register there is no way to change the status after the fact.

 

I assume to do this work it has to be original reciever?

Edited November 17, 2014 by laurencen

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Yes the registered dewatts are original receiver guns that were deactivated. They were sold with no paperwork years ago but when the amnesty came along they had to be registered or they became contraband.

[laurencen]

did not know dewats had to be registered in US, here once they are dewats they are removed from the registry, assume laws prevent even dewats being imported and likewise exported

[MARK2112]

Couldnt you scrap that reciever and buy a reciever from bob and just transfer all the markings from the scrap.i know theres probibly an NFA rule that says" no dice", but if the remade part is the same with the same markings and serial number.....what's the difference?

[mgvince]

It would be great if we could just transfer a serial number to a new receiver. But in the eyes of ATF that would be manufacturing a new machine gun.

 

The gun is in the Denver area. We have friends there so it might drive out to check it out. 8 hour drive.

 

There doesn't seem to be much available in 1928A1s right now, except Westies. Keeping options open but might go look at this gun.

[mnshooter]

Couldnt you scrap that reciever and buy a reciever from bob and just transfer all the markings from the scrap.i know theres probibly an NFA rule that says" no dice", but if the remade part is the same with the same markings and serial number.....what's the difference?

If that was possible, there would be no West Hurleys still existing.

[MARK2112]

Damn laws...........

[johnsonlmg41]

On a 28a1 finish means relatively little on values since a lot of them were arsenal refinished anyhow. On Colts I've nearly half I've seen for sale have been refinished and some have sold into the 40K range. Within 15 years more than half will be reblued and it will be more difficult to tell and will have little effect on values IMO. Machine gun values as noted have little to do with finish quality, but everything to do with paperwork. Guys are a pickier with Thompsons since they are more common than most other registered machine guns and the selection is far greater. Remember when ads used to start with West Hurley so as not to get guys to excited or overstate an item? Now the ads state 1928 or M1 and the prices are not that far apart from vintage ones? The buyers have changed a lot and prefer to pay more for a 98% refinished Colt than a 75% original gun. from what I am seeing in the market.

 

As an example no one complains about the dirt and finish on my HK sears?

[TD.]

I have to disagree that a government arsenal refinished 28A1 is of the same value as one that has been commercially blued. Perhaps half of the Colt's you have seen have been re-blued; that is not the case for me. Anyone that pays 40K for a re-blued Colt was cheated. Paperwork is really not an issue with most Class Three guns. It is or it isn't. A paperwork trail of previous owners showing pedigree is a different matter. I would think only uniformed buyers would pay more for a re-finished Colt than one with 75% original finish, everything else equal.

[reconbob]

I am with T.D. Of course, we all have our opinions and experiences, but any Thompson that has been

refinished is - to a knowledgeable buyer - worth less than a gun in original condition with an original finish.

The Thompson is a unique gun - especially the Colts which were manufactured to the same quality, fit,

and finish as a fine sporting rifle. Just about all machine guns were manufactured to military specifications

where the quality of the finish was by necessity not very good. The exceptions to this are the earliest guns

and those where commercial production lines made military guns - such as the early M1918 BAR's. The

fact that you are comparing a drop-in sear to a Colt Thompson shows that you have a unique perspective

on this.

 

Bob

Edited November 16, 2014 by reconbob

[21 smoker]

An old 07 FFL once spoke these words..." One out one in"....just saying....don`t kill the messenger....

[buzz]

I would not buy a dewat without having somebody like Reconbob look at it and declare it A++.

 

I saw one of the old rewelds or dewats he had in his shop for repairs, it was bent like a banana, there must have been like 1/8 inch of bend in it.

 

as the bolt was worked, the bolt would sort of lift up and down

Edited November 17, 2014 by buzz

[buzz]

johnsonlmg,

 

HK sears are not in the same collecting category as pre-45 thompsons.

 

When guns are in the "historical collector" category, the condition and originality becomes very important.

 

A Thompson that's in mint unfired condition might be worth 2X or even 3X a similar gun that's in excellent but used condition.

 

That kind of valuation doesn't happen among shooter-type guns.

 

 

 

As far as west hurleys go, that's generally a beginner market for very unsophisticated buyers. I know this for a fact from having been on the selling end.

 

The WH prices are pumped up by people who rate the gun based on the nice shiny new finish.

 

"What kind of ammo does that tommy gun take?" is the kind of questions you get from buyers.

Edited November 17, 2014 by buzz

[MARK2112]

In any thing one could possibly collect on this earth..........condition and originality of the object holds the cards every time.