Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Arthur, I believe collectors have come to expect a perfect alignment and anything less does impact value. That may be what is expected on a 1921A were the barrel was never removed for a 2nd pattern Cutts, however, even on those, the "perfect alignment" on original AOC factory examples may be somewhat imperfect. If a numbered 1921A barrel does not have a "perfect alignment" on the number matching receiver then your collector deduction is non deductible. bmarvin's 1921A barrel wound up in the same position as Nick's. board member bmarvin's 1921A Colt TSMGNick's 1921A Colt TSMG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 I don't disagree in principal. Most importantly, Chuck is correct about pictures sometimes distorting the actual amount of misalignment. Nick even says the misalignment is not as bad as in the picture. Since these Colt's were not manufactured to be collectors items, there are certainly some that are not perfect in every regard. That said, the manufacturing quality in the 1920s was something to be admired. And based on what I have seen regarding the index marks on Colt Thompsons over the years, Colt's got it right most of the time. If there is a slight misalignment and everything else is perfect and not suspicious including the wear patterns, then most likely it is an original barrel. I certainly believe Nick knows how to identify an original Colt's barrel. If not, he does not have far to look to go to school on the subject. All that said, I do think even a very slight misalignment may have an impact on value because an educated buyer has come to expect perfection from Colt's in this area. This impact can certainly be negated for more desirable variations like 2 and 3 digit guns, Models of 1927, NAVY As, etc. But nothing else must be suspect on the gun in question. With Nick's, there is that butt stock problem. Of course, both of these issues can be easily corrected...with money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firearm Posted February 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 Got a really nice original Colt stock assembly in hand, but I am always hesitant to modify history. That has come back to bite in the butt more than once in this business. I always try to leave things like I got them. I remember one time back when very starting buying Thompsons, I received #179 from Dr. Lyle Gage. When it came in it had a "Pennsylvania State Police" decal on the stock. I thought to myself, that really detracts from the looks of this weapon. Maybe I should take it off? I started in with the edge of a flat razor and just before I decided to take it off, I changed my mind. Luckily, I got smart early on. I'll take that butt plate off next time I get a chance and see if I can find anything under the crud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 If there is a slight misalignment and everything else is perfect and not suspicious including the wear patterns, then most likely it is an original barrel. Of course, both of these issues can be easily corrected...with money! True that. Seems a "perfect alignment" is no longer the acid test. "1921 Colt Thompson rebarrelPosted on March 27, 2014An early Colt Thompson, (S/N 11xx) came into the shop with a bulged barrel. Gary’s Bunker* did an R&R on the barrel with a correct period replacement, timed and cross pinned the type I Cutts compensator. Gary’s Bunker entered into the NFA market back in 1981 with its first model 1928 TSMG. We have dedicated tooling and over 30+ years of experience building and restoring vintage Thompson SMGs. Contact us for a free estimate on your needs." *Bob Higbee's TCA article describes Harry O'Connell as "a very capable Dallas machinist and former Class 2 manufacturer, and former Class 3 dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 This colt was just listed on MGC the add says its original and nothing done on this gun. The barrel marks are slightly off? https://machineguncentral.com/ViewDetails.aspx?p=410--4d6efdd9-9b53-466c-b08f-99d81cbe57a8 Sent from my iPhone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 I'm not sure there is an acid test for anything Colt's. However, there are accepted parameters that collectors and enthusiasts look at. The reproduction barrels of years past and continuing today make this a huge problem given the price of Colt's in today's market. If I am not mistaken, O'Connell was who Cox used to replace barrels on his Colt's with problems. One would think O'Connell serviced other dealers and collectors as well. Yes, these 40K plus guns can be fraught with problems! I don't know when the WWII butt stock entered the picture, but I am certain it was not present on NO 1908 the first 20 years plus of service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Wright Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 What does the W mark on the butt stock mentioned above stand for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 I didn't see the W mentioned above but W= Wild Fowler Decoy of Saybrook Conn. They were a WWll stock supplier. Bob D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelkih Posted February 22, 2019 Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 Very nice. Is the lower also non matching from the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firearm Posted February 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2019 The lower is matching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelkih Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) Thats weird that a 1000 serial numbered lower has the later selector markings. Nice gun! Edited February 26, 2019 by michaelkih Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thompsonteenager Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 Got this 21A out and shot up some jpegs today. It has a pretty interesting history. Looks like it was shipped to Colorado Sporting Goods Company back in April of 1926. It disappeared until Jan of 1956 when it was found along with another Thompson in a wine cask in the Broadmore Hotel in Colorado Springs, Colorado. During a major renovation project workers were cleaning out the cellar and when they moved one of the wine cask out they heard something rolling around inside. They opened it up and there were these two 21's wrapped in some oil rags. El Paso County Sheriff's Department was called and they confiscated both of them. A Deputy Sheriff registered both of them during the 68 Amnesty Act. In 1975 he traded some more modern weapons to the department for both on them. He sold one to his friend and kept the other. Years later his family sold it to me. This story came from the Deputy's wife and I confirmed it with one of the old timers that was still around. I can't help but wonder how / why they were stashed away in a wine cask in the cellar of that hotel. Some pretty influential people passed through that hotel over the years. Makes me think some gangster had these stashed away, just in case. Or maybe the owner of the hotel? In any case, I wish they could talk. Stock has been replaced and it looks like the barrel was probably replaced as well. However it is a Colt barrel and of an early vintage. Fins are very thin. Internals are correct. Overall the finish is still good shape except for where it was mounted in a rack and / or carried in a hard case. Thought you guys might like to take a peak. Pics attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpbcps Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) Indeed, I had read somewhere that the first pattern ‘Automatic’ and ‘Semi-Automatic’ selector markings were found on the initial 3,000, or so, Model of 1921’s that were produced. So I guess that information is not strictly true, if No. 1908 has the 'Full Auto' and 'Single' selector markings? What was the serial number range that the 'arrow' markings for ‘Fire’ and ‘safe’ changed? It is a really nice looking gun...mine looks worse for wear, it having probably spent more time underground than above it. Wine casks are obviously better option for storing guns. Richard Edited February 28, 2019 by rpbcps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted March 1, 2019 Report Share Posted March 1, 2019 Richard,Nice catch! The later fire control markings can be found prior to the 3000 serial number range. However, 1908 is a very early number for the later markings. Of note, there are a number of mixed variations in this serial number area. With the mismatched butt stock, I wonder if the frame has been mismatched with another one of Nick's Colt's. Something to check on Nick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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