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Introduction and Advice on First TSMG Purchase


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Hello everyone. I'm a long-time shooter who is finally interested in purchasing my first full auto. I have several NFA items already and have waited several years to be in a place where my discretionary spending can handle the purchase of a full auto. I'm interested in something that I can shoot a significant amount and would eventually like a TSMG to fit my WWII collection and an M16/AR15 to fit my modern arms collection.

 

I have read the FAQ section and would like to ask if I am looking for a shooter should I pursue a Savage, M1/M1A1, or WH (my reading makes me nervous about WH reliability)?

 

I'm leaning towards TSMG first and M16 second. Is there a reason I should do M16 first?

 

There is a WH for sale a couple posts down from mine, is this something I should buy?

 

Also, I live in Indiana, if anyone has any local advice on who to talk to I'd love to hear it.

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Hi Conrad,

 

Others will chime in. The Thompson or 16 question is rather up to you. A few interesting points for each option.

 

If you have been in collecting, just about all Thompsons are C&R and you may have your C&R. For NFA, that means if you have a C&R, you can get a firearm from out of state sent directly to you Can save 1 stamp/tranfer and some time depending on where the gun comes from. There are some C&R M16's. These can also come directly to you (after the NFA trasnfers in all cases).

 

Thompsons: WH guns have some issues. Please read the different threads about materials, blish lock slots, rear sights, cast parts. While I've got several WH guns, I'd have to say the 1928 or M1 from WW2 is normally considered a stout, low drama, firearm. Unless you have an attraction to the drum mags, the M1/M1A from WW2 is about as indestructable as you can get. The M1 also doesn't have the compensator to clean if you shoot a bunch or do a bunch of cast bullet reloads. Something to think about if you are going to shoot the gun often.

 

Caliber conversions - Plus 1 for the M16. The 16 and Tommy both have 22RF conversions. I much prefer Merle's 650 RPM cyclic in the Thompson to the Atchison (sp) 900-1000 RPM of the 16. What you don't get with the Tommy is an easy 9mm conversion. This is the plus1 for the 16.

 

Weight - I love shooting the Thompson. That being said, after lugging that pig around for 5-6 hours at a match gets old. (You will still find me with my Thompson at a match in spite of the weight.) The M16 is easier for young shooters and those of lighter build to hold up.

 

Sights - M16 can have just about anything you can think of easily stuck onto it somehow. Later military Tommies with the ugly bent metal peep sight, IMHO, are the best for shooting. There are clever things that can be done with the Lymann rear sight on the Tommy to drop a red dot into place. Just a little harder to mount and maybe looks more out of place with the red dot on the Thompson.

 

Just some random thoughts. Other will chime in. Oh yes, spend some time shooting each gun you are considering. One size doesn't fit all.

 

Good Luck,

 

Grasshopper

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I would add get what you want while you can, as the prices have gone up over time due to the artificial limit on supply (governmental regulation). The longer you wait the higher the prices in all likelihood. The second point would be you might get either one first depending on what you find and what kind of deal you can get. I don't think you could go wrong with either one, WWII era Thompson or Colt M-16. Robert

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I'm leaning towards TSMG first and M16 second. Is there a reason I should do M16 first?

 

There is a WH for sale a couple posts down from mine, is this something I should buy?

 

Also, I live in Indiana, if anyone has any local advice on who to talk to I'd love to hear it.

 

Where in Indiana? I am in Indianapolis and there are several others that are in Indiana as well. Indy is a very NFA friendly state.

 

I have a 1928 WH and love it. It won the steel plate shoot twice at the TCA show. If buying a WH, look for the lowest serial numbers or buy lots of parts to replace the WH parts with military parts.

I have a WWII M1 that is a great shooter with a little history.

 

A M16 is fun to shoot and there are about 80 bajillion parts available, in case of a problem, like a blown out barrel.

 

Prices are going to be about the same range. A WH is $16-$22K. About the same as a off name M16.

 

A Colt M16 and a Colt TSMG are in the same price range as well. Upper $30's to low $40's.

 

Other Indy peps chime in.

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Franks ( machine gun central) has a WH M1 for $20k but on sale for $19 this week if you want to go that route. I have no experience with the WH only what i see online. For a few k more you can get a GI gun and have better resale value. I paid 20k for my GI Savage M1A1 last year so they are out there dont be in a hurry. I waited and got a nice one. Edited by Petroleum 1
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Conrad,

Welcome to the Board. There are several very knowledgeable Forum members in Indiana so you should be able to network into some excellent sources of information and new friends. I cannot help you with the M16 but I know a little bit about the Thompson gun.

 

My first suggestion is not to get in a hurry. Both are expensive items and you need to minimize the chance of making a mistake. There is some junk out there you need to avoid. My second suggestion is that you join The American Thompson Association (TATA) and/or the Thompson Collectors Association (TCA) if you are serious about purchasing a Thompson. The cost to join both organization is very cheap considering the price of everything in the Thompson community. The link to information about both organizations is below:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showforum=57

 

Officers from both organizations are Forum members and will help you with any questions. I am also available to help.

 

Both organizations have private member only Shows & Shoots in Ohio in 2018. The All Thompson Show & Shoot for TATA members is Friday and Saturday, August 3 & 4, 2018. Tracie Hill's collection will be on display at this show. Many other members will also display their collections. It will be quite a learning experience! The Thompson Collectors Association Show and Shoot is on Saturday and Sunday, September 15 & 16, 2018 in Dennison, Ohio. Again, you will be able to meet and view many members collections on Saturday. The shooting events on Sunday are simply the best! Loaner Thompsons are usually available at both events but you must bring factory premium ammunition. No reloads, off brand or steel case stuff.

 

Attendance at both events will allow you to view and hold (with permission) West Hurley, GI and Colt's Thompsons. You will find the experience very valuable in helping you make the right purchase decision. You may also find deal or two that are not advertised. Many Class 3 sales happen without advertisement.

 

One other suggestion to do while waiting on the upcoming Shows & Shoots. Buy a copy of Frank Iannamico's, American Thunder - Third Edition. It is available via Amazon.com for $40. It is a very worthwhile investment for those new to the Thompson community. Frank is usually at both Shows and will gladly personalize the book for you.

 

​I look forward to meeting you later this year!

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Wow everyone, I really appreciate the windfall of advice. I purchased the book as recommended. It looks like it will be here in a couple weeks per Amazon. Ill send Tracie a check tonight in order to join TATA, $30 is a small fee for good advice of a 20-30k purchase.

 

Merry, I emailed that member about his WH and havent heard back yet - well see I guess.

 

Ive shot both platforms in full auto (M1 and m4 respectively) I enjoy them both. The thing I like about the Thompson in particular is it is its amazing historical relevance and its big block engine character. Im not a huge guy (6ft, 180#) and found it was easy to control and a joy to shoot. I really dont care about caliber changes, Ill keep both stock factory.

 

As to being in a hurry, Ive been stalking subguns now for about 5 years and while prices steadily increased so have equities *fortunately* hence I (so far) dont have regrets. Im 37 and have a young family so its been important to have my financial ducks in a row prior to purchasing what is essentially a huge indulgence on my part. Im willing to sit it out and find something I wont regret buying, buy once/cry once is a motto for me.

 

Again, Im very grateful for everything you guys have provided, this website is an amazing resource for a novice.

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I have a couple FA's and i just got my first MP40 I am now going straight out and get another one. I think i like it the best out of all my guns.

Cheap to shoot, easy to take apart and parts are all over the place to purchase. Hasn't jammed once. Keep that gun in mind or come to Florida and try mine out.

I'm in love.

Eric

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Welcome to the boards and your upcoming first FA purchase. All I can say is that its all downhill from here.

 

If you can spare the vacation time I would suggest joining us in August for the All Thompson Show and Shoot. If youve not bought by then youll get to see plenty of guns and the education from talking to members and seeing the collections are priceless.

 

A special welcome to a young member as well. We really need to get more youth involved in gun collecting.

 

Ron

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there recently was (2) nice Colt 614 AR15 full auto's for sale...i think on Sturm...$22,500 and $23,000....i felt these were both great deals...the M16 market was rock bottom a year+ ago....now prices seem to be +$5,000 with A2's difficult to find and $30-35k

 

Thompsons have also gone up a bit in price over the past year, but not nearly as much....a recent member got a really nice WW2 M1 for $20-22k i believe....no pits, no rust..nice

 

id recommend against WH guns....seems like more have issues than dont

 

i prefer the 1928 over the M1 as i like the drum and the ''classic'' look.......i recommend looking for a 1928 ac police gun....typically they are matching numbers and original finish....vs war guns that are just a mix master of parts.......M1's seem to be $21-25k+ and 1928's $26-28k......

 

if you choose a thompson expect to spend months looking for the right gun....new ones come up weekly, but most are pitted junk....a nice one takes 3-6 months to find at the right price

 

if you wish to talk m16s feel free to PM me as i follow this market-----the Thompson is more fun

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Normal, I appreciate the MP40 rec. Ive heard that theyre great shooters and obviously the history element is there but given the fact I dont have any American stuff yet to match my American semi collection it makes more sense to go with the TSMG.

 

Ron, right now Im attempting to open the weekend for the TATA shoot, Im not C&R so Im guessing its going to be doing a lot more looking than shooting but for my level of knowledge thats probably appropriate - I obviously have a lot of learning to do. There is minutia here that many of you understand that is frankly way over my head but Im hoping by devouring a lot of prior posts here and going to some events I can get the basics down to the point I know what to buy.

 

Huggy, I will take you up on that offer. Im traveling presently but will try to PM you sometime thereafter. If you, or frankly anyone, sees something that is worth chasing from a value and quality standpoint and doesnt want it for themselves by all means let me know.

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Hi Conrad,

 

Old video alert. Don't discount the 22LR kit in the Thompson. Just drops in with a field strip. Still my favorite. Just click the link and it downloads.

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6m9e1kehee0jir/2.wmv?dl=1

 

Enjoy,

 

Grasshopper

Edited by Grasshopper
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Welcome, Conrad.

While other guns are fun, the Thompson will always put a big smile on your face when you pull the trigger!

If you have a C&R License (FFL) you can use that to transport C&R guns more easily...one of the best deals out there at 30 clams for three years.....and with all the anti's out there, they lend credibility to you as a collector.

 

That said, Thompson's aren't too expensive to shoot either, but as for M16 types, my state (Minnesota) id CUrio/Relic only so any MG's have to be C&R guns. I've always liked the original Armalite AR18 rifles, and recently saw one somewhere for just a bit over 10 grand.

 

I have a Sten MKII and a S&W 76 and love both of them, but always had a soft spot in my heart (and maybe my head?) for the '28 Thompson.....guess the soft spot in my head took over last month when I found another '28 Thompson, WWII Savage and a fair deal.....sent paperwork in on that last week!

 

If you are sure you want one, others in the string are correct.....do the research so you get a nice gun and a fair deal.

Meantime, hang out here, soak up the smarts of others, ask lots of questions and learn.....and start buying parts, drums, mags, more parts, etc.

 

Cheers!

 

john

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a m16 is out doors at specific ranges (in my State i only know of one)

a thompson is any indoor range

 

a M16 isnt easy to control FA

a Thompson isnt the easiest subgun to control, but 2-3x easier than an m16 is

 

i own (2) .223 full auto's...i rarely shoot them......cool to own....but subguns are more sensible for shooting and enjoying.....

 

might want to consider a mac 11 and get the lage .223 upper when it comes out...from the video's ive seen it looks much easier to control than a m16 at $3k for the upper...and the mac platform is very fun to shoot.....id say my favorite subgun to shoot is my mac 10......favorite to look at?

Thompson

 

for $10k you could have a Mac 11 and m16 in the same gun and still have $25k to spend on a decent thompson

Edited by huggytree
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If your situation is one or the other and you like to shoot a lot, get the M16. You can make it a multi caliber subgun, belfed, sniper rifle, suppressed, door gunner, gadget machine.

The Thompson is a Thompson and always will be, no real changes. Yes there's history, but only for old folks. Younger folks see history in M16's and now see them as historical war guns due to their age bracket and they will continue to grow in historical significance as time marches on.

 

I shoot, enjoy, and collect them all, but if I could get only one, it would be an M16 style gun. Just my .02

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Can someone please let me know what questions I should ask this seller? Is this an ok deal?

 

https://www.machineguncentral.com/ViewDetails.aspx?p=574--ccdbcded-c2cd-4a2d-bb84-4a7e6de5aaa3

 

Edit - the seller only has one post. How to I navigate this guy potentially being a fraudulent post? Sorry for all the questions.

Edited by Conrad
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Conrad,

Your in Indiana and the seller is in Ohio - definitely driving distance. The asking price is a lot of money for something you do not fully understand. The first thing I would do is call the seller and ask for much better pictures. Based on the poor pictures, it appears this Thompson gun (at least the receiver) has been heavily buffed and refinished. I am guessing an Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport (AOB) receiver and Savage Arms frame. I would also ask if he is now or has been a member of one or both of the Thompson associations. Spending time to go and see it will increase your knowledge. You do not have to buy it to learn. If I made the trip, I would want to see the current and past ATF forms. Knowing the past history is always a good thing.

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TD, appreciate the advice. Not a member of any Thompson orgs. Pictures are incoming. He is an Former Ffl who recently retired (business name checks out with internet search). Says he bought the gun off a police dept in the 80s. Arsenal refinish. Runs well. Lots of savage parts like you said. Offered a visit and test fire. Assuming it isnt pitted and runs well, anyone care to let me know what they think its worth?
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I was just going to post the same link. For some reason this gun looks familiar maybe it was posted for sale recently idk. It looks clean and price is not out of line. Maybe someone knows the seller here on the forum. Edited by Petroleum 1
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I can say one thing for certain, I hate looking at that new site with an iPhone. Trying to view pictures just frustrates me. Oh well, no need to shop on MGcentral

 

Price seems ok but it would warrant a good detailed inspection. You want to be sure it has not been re-watted (no signs of grinding, welding, etc).

 

Also be sure thats the one you want. When budget is limited you need to be sure there will be no remorse due to buying the first one you see.

 

Ron

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