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New (Thompson) American Submachine Guns 1919-1950 Book


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https://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-Guns-of-the-World-American-Submachine-Guns-1919-1950-2-by-Luc/132577358988?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

Just received today. Great picture book of Thompsons. as well as, M3 "Grease Gun, Reising, UD M42. Not read for text accuracy as yet. Several new photos.

 

Published in 2018. 80 pages total of which 62 pages are Thompson.

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I've been meaning to offer up a review of the book, which I've had about a month now. I also have the other two that Luc Guilllou recently published in the series, which cover German Submachine Guns, and the Sten and variants.

The Thompson book has some very good content, while it also has some unfortunate flaws. It appears that the original French book, written by Luc, was reformatted by someone at the U.S. company (Schiffer) who knew nothing about Thompsons. Case in point, Luc covers the Model of 1927 quite well, but his photos were only of the receiver markings, and the fire controls. This makes sense to us collectors, because all the external differences with the Model of 1927 are in the markings and the control levers. Well, someone at Schiffer apparently thought that they should include a photo of a full sideview of a Model of 1927, so they went to gunauction.com to find one. Guess what...They included a photo of a West Hurley Model 1927A1, and touted it as a rare (Colt) Model of 1927...Ouch! There are a couple of other errors that I noticed, but it also has some good content, and overall, it is a good starter book, with 62 pages on the Thompson, with very nice pictures. You just have to know that there are a few major errors inside to go along with the good content...

I like that the book includes a photo of a British modified Thompson featuring the intermediate sight, and I also like some of the comparison photos. For instance, Luc includes photos of the Lyman "L" sights with both different styles of Lyman markings. He also shows different buttstock style comparisons, fire controls with knurling versus smooth controls, and knurled versus smooth actuator knobs. He also includes some nice photos of British armorer repairs, and British sling placement, as well as French Berthier sling swivels.

Luc did a great job covering the U.S. Postal Service Thompsons.

There is a major timeframe error on page 32, where it is stated that the U.S. Army ordered 951 Colt Thompsons AFTER the French and Swedish orders. However, the U.S. order really occurred before both European orders, and came about just as Russel Maguire finalized the acquisition of Auto Ordnance in 1939.

Another error I noticed involved the description of the 500 Colts that went to Sweden, which he indicated were overstamped, and marked "Model of 1928A1," which they were not. The myth that 2/3 of the Thompsons destined to Britain were sunk by German U-Boats was also unfortunately perpetuated in the book. The actual figure is around 4%, and is addressed with quantities, dates, and other specifics through footnotes and citations in Tom Davis' excellent book, "Great Britain: The Tommy Gun Story."

The book is obviously translated from French, and is French-centric. There is some odd phraseology, but overall, they did a pretty good job of the translation.

Luc helped me 12 years ago when I wrote my article on French Colt Thompsons. He is a good researcher, and is well published in France. I have not yet corresponded with him about the new books. Even with the criticisms, I am happy this book was published, and I think it fills a niche. The photos are excellent, and he includes many collector details that one would not expect to find in a short book like this. (80 pages total)

Here are the 3 new books together:

IMG_5241.jpg

Bill...I hope you'll forgive me for somewhat hijacking your post...

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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David,

How is the German SMG book? Any interesting data or photos not found elsewhere? Is the MP-38 examined in detail or just a bridge from MP-34 to MP-40? The TV series with Joe Montagna did an episode on the MP-38/40 and I don't think they ever showed an actual MP-38. When he discussed the MP-38 they did cut aways to an MP-40!

 

Thank you for your feedback!

TC

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TC,

 

I had only glanced through it so far, until I read your post, so I went and took a closer look. I'm not an expert on German Submachine Guns by any stretch, so I would probably not be able to call out any errors. It has 5 pages on the MP-38, with lots of close-up photos and details of collector interest. The photos throughout the book are excellent.

 

It covers many different German subguns. Here are the contents:

 

Chapter 1; The Bergmann MP18/1

Chapter 2: The Modified MP18/1

Chapter 3: The MP28/II Submachine Gun

Chapter 4: The Bergmann MP35/I

Chapter 5: The MP34(o) Steyr Solothurn

Chapter 6: The "EMP" (Erma Vollmer) Submachine Gun

Chapter 7: The MP38

Chapter 8: The MP40

Chapter 9: The MP41

Chapter 10: Foreign Submachine Guns in the Service of the Third Reich

Chapter 11: Weapons at the End of the War

Chapter 12: Assault Rifles Mob 42, MP43/1, MP44, and StG44

 

80 pages total.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Ordered. Should arrive in a few days. If anyone else sees any other errors, please list them as it would be a good idea to have them on a loose sheet inside the book for reference.

 

Andrew

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Received mine today. It definitely looks to be interesting. I thought it looked familiar and then saw it is the same publisher as my "The M1 Helmet of the WW2 GI" book.

 

Andrew

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  • 1 month later...

My copy of the American Sunmachine Guns and The Sten arrived a while ago.

David has done a good review of one of the books, I do however have a few questions.

 

A few Colt made guns are shown or serial numbers quoted in the text and I wondered if these appear in Gordon's book?

Page 12 photo of gun serial number 1887.

Page 16 and 32 photo of gun number 12551.

Page 32 quoted in text, serial numbers from French order, 10384 and 10171.

Page 33 photo of gun number 767.

 

The one gun I am especially interested as it may be a British gun, but the serial number does not seem to be quoted and is not visible in the photos. It does not have a compensater. Can any one tell me from the photos if it is a Savage or a Colt made gun. It appears on the cover of the book and pages, 11 , 19 , 22 and 39.

 

A lot of these guns appear to be from the collection of the Royal Army Museum, Brussels. Has anyone ever visited this museum and what did you think?

 

Finally, The Sten book is excellent and well worth getting although the go to book will always be Peter Laidlers book. I did notive a very early Patchett Machine Carbine serial number 032. I happen to own serial number 029, which appears to have a hard life like number 032. I only hope that the user of my gun did not have the same fate as the user of number 032 who was killed in battle.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have all 3 now. In my opinion, the 'German Submachine Guns' book is the best of the three. Lot's of great full color high def pictures thru out. Would definitely recommend if you collect WW2 German sub guns. The 'Sten' book is also very good and would recommend. Todd in Oregon

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 months later...

I've been meaning to publish an errata sheet for this book for a while. Tracie Hill, Sutton Coffman, and I read the book, and noted the errors listed below. I still think this book has a redeeming overall value, if the errors are taken into account when reading it. It has great photos, and documents some things I mentioned previously that are not covered in other books. If Mr. Guillou ever reprints it, I hope that revisions are made to correct these errors.

 

Errata Sheet to Luc Guillou’s “American Submachine Guns, 1919-1950”

 

· pp. 8-10 - Misspelled Theodore Eickhoff’s name several times

· p. 10 - The Persuader was not “stripped of a buttstock” – The Persuader did not have a buttstock as a design feature

· p. 10 - The Persuader rate of fire was around 1500 rpm, not “almost 1000 rounds per minute”

· p. 14 – The paragraphs beginning with “The first three specimens,” and “It was only after the first No. 45” are incorrect in almost all regards

· p. 15 – Instead of “ground to air weapon,” it should be “air to ground weapon”

· p. 15 – The rounding of the actuator slot was made to ease manufacture, not to prevent cracks from forming

· p. 16 – A rattle round is not a “longer cartridge”

· p. 18 – IRA Thompson serial numbers were not “removed with a welding torch” – They were defaced by other means

· p. 18 – Hoover was not a policeman – he was a lawyer for the Justice Dept. before he became head of the FBI

· p. 18 – The “1923 Model” was not to be chambered in “9mm Bergmann-Bayard, 7.63 Mauser, and .351 SL with a bipod and able to receive a bayonet”– Author mistook Model of 1923 for BSA Thompsons

· p. 20 – Buttstock shown on 1923 model is not a 1923 buttstock – It is a normal 1921 buttstock – A 1923 buttstock is much straighter in profile

· p. 21 – This is probably the most glaring error in the book, and was likely caused by the Schiffer Military History folks who published this American version of Mr. Guillou’s work – Mr. Guillou demonstrates in his writing that he knows a Model of 1927 Thompson Semi-Automatic Carbine is not a West Hurley Model of 1927 Thompson, but yet there is a photo of a West Hurley noted as a “Rare example of a semi-automatic model of 1927 Thompson,” and the photo is credited to www.gunauction.com. Since Mr. Guillou’s photo was a close-up of the side of a Model of 1927 Colt, someone at Schiffer Military History who doesn’t know anything about Thompsons probably Googled for a full profile photo of a 1927, and found the West Hurley gun that is featured across the page. Lord have mercy!

· p. 22 – The statement, “Auto-Ordnance succeeded in placing one or two submachine guns in every municipal police station” is certainly inaccurate - They would have been a successful company, and sold out of inventory quickly, if that were the case - Instead, their inventory lasted until 1940, and the company was acquired by Russel Maguire at a substantial discount

· p. 26 – Should be “Oscar V. Payne” instead of “Thomas V. Payne”

· p. 29 – A West Hurley L-Drum is featured in the photo with all other items being of WWII era

· p.30 – Timeline has issues, and the NFA of 1934 did not “…forbad the ownership and the sale of automatic weapons to individuals” – If this were true, we would not be able to own Thompsons today under the NFA of 1934

· p. 30 – The statement that Marcellus Thompson convinced Russel Maguire to purchase Auto-Ordnance is incorrect

· p. 32 – Mr. Guillou indicates the 500 Colts that went to Sweden were overstamped, and marked "Model of 1928A1" – This is incorrect, and they were not marked in this matter

· p. 32 - It is incorrectly stated that the U.S. Army ordered 951 Colt Thompsons AFTER the French and Swedish orders - However, the U.S. order really occurred before both European orders, and came about just as Russel Maguire finalized the acquisition of Auto Ordnance in 1939

· p. 35 – The total of 5,625,111 1928 and 1928A1 Thompsons manufactured during WWII is completely erroneous – The number is more likely 1.5 million

· p. 40 - The myth that 2/3 of the Thompsons destined to Britain were sunk by German U-Boats was also unfortunately perpetuated in the book - The actual figure is around 4%, and is addressed with quantities, dates, and other specifics through footnotes and citations in Tom Davis' excellent book, "Great Britain: The Tommy Gun Story"

· p. 53 – the last paragraph on this page mentions a 40-round drum, which probably was meant to be a 39-round drum – It also mentions Auto-Ordnance taking over Numrich Arms, which did not happen

 

There may be other errors that were not noted. If you see any, please add them here. The notes above can be downloaded as a Word file at the following link, which makes it easy to print, and place in your copy of the book.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Errata%20Sheet%20to%20Luc%20Guillou%20Thompson%20Book_Rev1.docx

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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