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J.c. Devine Auction


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QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 10 2004, 12:07 PM)
The common thread here is that there are social or economic changes going on in our country that worry me a lot.  More and more cash seems to be accumulating in fewer and fewer hands.  This is steadily widening the gap between the haves and have nots.

I don't know if it will happen in my lifetime (next 30 yers), but I do believe a social revolution where the "have nots" take what they choose from the "haves" is inevitable. The scene from Dr. Zhivago where the rich family has their home seized and occupied "for the good of the people" will become, sometime in the near future, more than just a movie plot.

 

This country was founded and flourished under a system where a man was responsible for his own success. I'm not a social historian, but it seems to me that the availablilty of vast amounts of cheap furtile land fueled the agrarian phase of our growth. Then you had the availability of cheap energy and manpower which fueled the industrial revolution and the growth of manufacturing. As people had more money, they wanted more things. It was a self-feeding cycle where wealth created demand which created more industrial capacity which created additional wealth and so on and so on. Manufacturing is what created the "Middle Class".

 

As manufacturing eroded (transferred overseas), the service sector picked up some of the slack. But there's a limit to what that industry can support. In other words, the economy can't be based everyone either owning a Subway shop, a dry cleaner shop or working at Best Buy. Somewhere in the chain, somebody has to work to create some tangible value. We just can't exist by swapping around the same dollars.

 

I am fearful of the future. The problems are enormous and I have no faith in people like John Kerry or George Bush being able to motivate the citizens to make the tough choices. People are more interested in bickering about gay marriages, Janet Jackson's right breast, or who's going to win American Idol competition.

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What separates us from the rest of the world is our ability to change what is wrong...and we have the power to do so...backed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights...this is America, not S.Africa or China...so we can build our future.I still have hope,come November I will renew my hope.

 

 

Phil, AzDoug... It`s funny the similar paths we take..Aviation and vintage Corvettes and Thompsons...strikingly similar...I was an A&P 30yrs.ago,stung by the romance aviation...still drive my hopped up 59 roadster faster than I should...and break out the 21 every trip to the range...what a country..just my .02,out. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

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Here is my toy.

 

Anymore, I don't get bitched at by the purists because it has Cragars instead of original 4.5" wide stamped steel wheels with original hubcaps, not painted Ermine White , the heinous 1962 grill on a '61, etc, as they figure I am a heathen. :-)

 

And there in no point in it anyway. It is a Corvette. Whteretr it is original or not down to the Nth degree is really unimportant. I never destroyed anything. It could easily be brought back to stcock by removing teh 350/327, narrowed 12 bolt, Doug Nash 5-speed, and disc brakes.

 

TSMG's should be accepted the same way. They are none the less a TSMG if at sometime in the past the incorrect fire control levers were attached, or it has the wrong buttstock, or even if it has a receiver machined out of high quality 4130 chrome moly steel like the WH guns, instead of the basic generic steel like 1018/1020 that was used for the original Colt receivers.

 

http://www.srtarms.com/Cvette1R.jpg

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I had a 1966 Vette with mild flares, Vector Cyclone wheels, and a 1967 427 hood, but it still had the 327/350 engine that was optioned for the car that year. When customers bought these cars back in the day, they naturally customized them to suit their tastes. The Bloomington Gold crowd are fanatics who can't see the forrest for the trees. Personalizing a Vette can easily be done without sacrificng the basic original look and power plant. Why someone would want to continue to ride on skinny 1960's Redline tires, when that technology was woefully inadequate even at the time, seems to want to sacrifice safety and performance for the sake of a gold certificate.

 

I don't think anyone is denying a a Thompson is still a Thompson even if it might have parts from a different gun. Of course you would not pay the same foir a Colt gun with WWII parts, or WH parts. And you wouldn't pay the same for a Savage/AO gun with WH parts. But that is not the same as qualifying any knock off gun, made from components, and by people, who had no connection to the original weapon, to be a legitimate heir to the originall gun. This would apply to a car posing as a mid-year Vette, because it has a modern made fiberglass kit body on a VW frame with a Nissan engine.

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The point I was trying to make is, if a piece of metal is machined into something that dimesionally is a duplicate of a Thompson, it is a Thompson.

 

It may not have the authenticity, or provenance, or pedigree of a gun made 80 years ago, but it is a Thompson.

 

Is a Pearl reweld not a Thompson becuse it was cut up for scrap, and then reweded by someone else, and they put their name on it? It will never get the money a pristine, uncut gun will, but it is still dimensionally a Thompson. A WH gun is not a Glock with some sheetmetal attached to it in the shape of a Thompson, it is diemsionally identical to that Colt .

 

Is my Corvette not a Corvette, because I bought it out of a junkyard, and put it back together (I have no connection with GM, and never did) and it has some non-original fiberglas pieces on it, and repro interior and trim parts, and the motor is not orignal? If i had come across an original NOS corvette frame, and original NOS fibergals body panels, and NOS suspension compnents, etc,, and assembled them into a Corvette, is it not a Corvette because I never worked for GM? Would my Corvette cease to be a Corvette if I put a new production frame under it because the old one was all rusted out?

 

At what point, does something go from real to fake? Is a Colt receiver that has a WH lower, and New barrel, and savege internals a Thompson, or a fake? It certainly won't bring the price of a 100% gun, but it is still a Thompson. Why is it any different that a WH receiver with all Colt parts? It still looks, and functions the same.

 

Doug

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Is a Special Weapons an HK?

 

No.

 

Is it an HK clone? Yes.

 

Is it an HK pattern gun? Yes.

 

Is it an MP5? I think it can be.

 

Are any of the 1911's a 1911? Yes. For sure.

Are they a Colt 1911? No.

Are they a Colt? No.

 

Is a DS-ARMS an FN-FAL? No.

Is it an FAL? I think so.

 

I think it is pretty clear a WH is a Thompson.

I think it is pretty clear a rebuild Corvette is a Corvette.

I think it is pretty clear that a kit-car that looks like a Corvette is not a Corvette.

 

All very confusing.

 

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A rebuilt Corvette is of course still a Corvette. But if it had a frame manufactured today by some business, and a non period engine, and a completely remanufactured fiberglass body, then no it's not a Corvette. I mean there are serial numbers involved and data plates. The same holds for the WH "Thompson." The only thing that replica shares with any Thompson made before 1945 is the name. And if Auto-Ord corporation had not ceased to exist back in 1944, then there would be law suits targeted at Numrich for labeling his knock-off a "Thompson." Just because a person stamps Philip Patek on a watch does not make it a Philip Patek, even if at first blush it looks just like a Philip Patek, even if it does tell time.

 

Every author on Thompson history/minutia i.e. Cox, Helmer, Hill, Richardson, all agree that the WH "Thompson" is indeed a replica. As far as any 1911 .45 being a legitimate 1911's based on the Colt 1911, is true only because using the term 1911 is a generic label. If WH wanted to call its version of the Thompson the "1928 Numrich" then there would be no problem.

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But isn't Thompson a generic label anymore, like 1911, as the copyrights or whatever lapsed?

 

And if NAC5 is a Colt manufactured receiver, why isn't it a Colt? Why isn't it a Real TSMG?

 

Just becuase they didn't put it in part of their serial number sequence, does not make it any less of a Colt, as Colt manufactured it. Maybe it was fully assembled by Colt and never serialed? Maybe Earl took Colt parts from it, and substituted Savage parts? Hell, earl did that on Serialed Colt TSMGs.

 

No one is claiming it is an Original Colt TSMG, that was completely built, and put into circulation in 1921, but to say it isn't a real TSMG, or a reproduction is a bit of denial.

 

I guess your basic argument is any real TSMG had a serial number assigned to it while AOC was still a viable corporation, and anything that had a SN assigned after AOC ceased to exist as a corporate entity is a reproduction. This of course is a valid argument.

 

If I build a Corvette out of all NOS parts, that were all manufactured by GM, and registered it as a home built, it IS a Corvette, though it would not be a General Motors Corvette as GM did not assign the SN. Is it a reproduction? Hardly, as is was made from all original parts

 

I just call WH New Manufacture, especially since they were made using for the most part, the original tooling and machinery the original Colts and savages were produced with.

 

Did Numrich ever re incorporate AOC, or did they just stamp Auto Ordnance Corporation on the gun?

 

Doug

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Oh come on. NAC5 is clearly a real TSMG. It would be like a Corvette where someone got it from GM without a windshield after GM went out of business, and put in a windshield made from a contractor that GM had once used. An all factory car, no -- but still a GM made body and frame.

 

I cannot search for the thread on NAC because the search does not allow less than 4 characters. I guess they want to keep the search database small and they know that there are very few meaningful 3 letter words.

Edited by rsilvers
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RS,

I didn't say that the NAC guns don't have Colt frames, although your NAC 5 has a strange "Colt's" font. But they are not unique, special, rare, or prized either. Your Corvette without a windshield analogy would be more accurate if you said someone went out and got a Corvette over run un-serialized frame and then used Ford and Chrsyler and Yugo parts to complete the car 40 years after production ended. Is it now a Corvette? The market place decides that. The fact that you paid the same amount for a NAC gun that WH guns sell for seems to dictate where in the echelon of Thompson's the NAC resides....See NAC Thread now on this page.....

 

AZDoug,

Right. The Thompson logo lapsed into an unprotected copyright area. So how many other look-a-like weapons that sported the name "Thompson" might also be considered as legitimate as any other Thompson made before 1945? The name becomes more diminished, diluted and inconsequential if there is no touchstone for the original Thompson.

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Hey, RS:

 

BTW, congrats on your purchases.

 

I own NAC 15. The gun is all Colt except for the actuator and Blish lock. Unlike yours, mine has no roll stamping on it. The entire gun, including the lower receiver has no markings, no safe/fire, no semi/auto, etc.

 

I also have WH and a pre-sample early 1928A1 Savage. All bought years ago when they could be had for $2000-$3000 each.

 

Would I like a pedigreed Colt? Yes. Will I spend that kind of money for one? Not unless I win the lottery. :-)

 

I am happy with my collection.

 

Back when i bought my Corvette for $500, I sometimes wished I could have afforded to buy one that was all original and not one missing an engine and some fiberglas, but coming up with $1500-$2000 was more than this 16 year old kid could afford in 1974', and after 30 years, I am happier with my rebuild/restoration, than I would have been with an untouched original, as an original would have turned into a trailer queen. It wasn't bought to resell for profit, nor were my guns. They were bought because I wanted them to enjoy.

 

Doug, (heathen owner of weird TSMGs)

 

 

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I don't think the fact that I got it for a WH pricepoint means anything other than I was in the right place at the right time. It does have an interesting place in history. They are mentioned in all books on Thompson history. Yes, yes, WH is also. But please. It has a Colt frame made in 1921.
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QUOTE I don't think the fact that I got it for a WH pricepoint means anything other than I was in the right place at the right time.

 

 

RS,

The right place, right time? Well, I guess if one was looking specifically for a NAC, yah. But that Devine Auction was not low profile. It had been advertised everywhere for months so anyone looking to purchase a Thompson couldn't have missed it. Where were all the other bidders who were willing to pay in excess of $12K for it? Was it just serendipity that the auctioneer found your bid most pleasing to his ear? I predicted that the approximate price you paid is what it would sell for. You mentioned that $6K Colt parts kit that Bob was offering. Maybe you should have grabbed that set in order to make a complete gun. Since the receiver number is not an issue, it wouldn't matter that the Colt frame number wouldn't match.

 

I know you are getting a lot of your info on NAC's from Philip Fecher's, (the previous owner of NAC 5),TCN article.

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Are you nuts? Taking out my original NAC5 parts and putting in mismatched Colt parts?

 

Besides, my gun with Colt parts added would not increase its value. It would still be a Frankengun to many.

 

I think a lot of people did not bother bidding because the prices were so high last year they thought it was not worth the effort.

 

I have already had at least 3 people email me offering to buy these guns. Not just the unaltered 21, but all of them -- although some of them were just being nice to bail me out if I was unhappy.

Edited by rsilvers
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The NAC parts are merely a compilation of Savage, AO, and West Hurley. I know you were saying "original NAC parts" tongue in cheek. I hope.....Did these parties who contacted you on buying your Devine purchases offer an amount above what you paid?

 

I know there are two schools of thought on whether it is better to restore such cars, or leave them as they are. But paint is only original once. Maybe the Spyder was repainted before the 1995 job? It depends on how deteriorated the paint was. If it had normal dings and chips from driving, but was not horribly faded, why mess with it?

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Yes, I meant 'original' NAC parts as a joke. I think it would be ok to put Colt parts back in, as long as I saved the NAC parts. But I don't think it would add $6,000 in value to the gun. I think much less.

 

I got no offered for much more than what I paid. But people know I won't sell them.

 

Wan't me to advertise NAC5 now for $25,000 and the Goldfinger gun for $28,000? I will say it is a parts gun with a Colt receiver and unknown internals. And will say the other one was plated by an unknown individual and not the Colt factory, but records indicate it was plated before the West Virginia State Police had it.

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RS,

Since Colt/Auto-Ordnance didn't manufacture any specially engraved, or plated guns, and if the West Virginia PD was the first buyer of the gun from Auto-Ord, (which Cox says they were), then it had to be done by the cops or some subsequent owner. Another private party did own that gun in 1994. Where would the WVPD get the funds to submit their tax payer owned gun for plating? What documentation did you get from Devine to substantiate this?

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