About Military Model of 1923

[reconbob]

Your references are most interesting and I appreciate you taking

the time to,post them

There must be a website that can translate the Russian text.

The American version of this book would be The Machine Gun by George

M. Chinn. He wrote a lengthy and comprehensive history of machine guns.

One of the volumes dealt with Soviet weapons and was classified for many

years. The actual Chinn books are rare and expensive - especially the one

on Soviet weapons but now all these years later it can be found on line.

 

Bob

[rpbcps]

Indeed, thanks for posting General Blagonravov's report.

 

With the translator app on my smart phone, I can take photos of downloaded scans and I thought it gave a reasonable translation, but the more I have tried to use it on the report, the less sense the translations have made.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited May 24, 2020 by rpbcps

[reconbob]

I have been talking to Doug about the posts pertaining to the "M1923" Thompson.

For those of you newer guys who may not know, Doug is one the notable Thompson enthusiasts and researchers
from what is, I guess, becoming the previous era. He has written and self published a number of Thompson books
and manuals (I guess the most recent being the "Workshop Manual") as well as manufactured a variety of Thompson
receivers and products which have become famous. (Barreling tools, Ultimax receivers, etc.)When he was younger
back in the 1980's he would travel to Europe every summer and a good bit of his time there was spent tracking down
and researching Thompsons and some of this is alluded to below. He sent me this response to post for him.

Bob

By Douglas W. Richardson

The Thompson Submachine Gun Military Models seem to be the most misunderstood guns Auto-Ordnance
Corporation made. I studied the guns that still exist and researched original documentation to draw my
conclusions. Today it seems that the procedure is to resurrect a faulty narrative and then spend endless hours
trying to find evidence to prove it.The result is that every strange Thompson gets labeled a 1923.

I believe I have spent as much - or likely more - time researching the Thompson Military Models as anyone,
having devoted over 30 years to this effort. Here are the results of that research....

The failure of the Thompson gun to generate substantial sales in 1921 and 1922 left the Auto-Ordnance
Corporation wondering what to do. There really was no market for the Thompson. if it had been
available during WW1, it might have found its place in history. WW1 identified the need for a light
auto-rifle like the BAR. Perhaps a long barrel version of the Thompson with a bipod would have had appeal.
Such guns would have to be modifications of existing Thompsons because it would not be cost effective to
develop of a new gun. All the guns were marked “Thompson Submachine Gun”/“Model of 1921", there
would be confusion as to how to refer to a new model built from an exiting model. The solution was to call
the envisioned long barrel guns “Military Models”. To my knowledge Auto-Ordnance never used the term
"1922" or "1923". The only official listing of the Military Models was the entry in the 1923 Catalog.
A-O referred to the catalog gun as the “Extra Heavy Barrel Military Model. The gun shown is referred
to by most of us as the Model of 1923. The M1923 has the heavy pattern non-finned barrel with a Hotchkiss
Model 1922 Light Machine Gun bipod mounted several inches behind the front sight, provision, to mount
a bayonet, and an in-line buttstock. This is where the fun begins.

There are two 1923 guns shown in the catalog. There are two versions of the M1923 shown - one with an "L" drum,
and one fitted with a .45 Remington-Thompson box magazine The guns shown are the same serial number gun
set up differently. Therefore, the gun is either chambered for .45 ACP or .45 Remington-Thompson. It can't be both.
It is also possible that the barrel has no chamber at all. The gun could be is a mock-up! I say this because the
trigger frame from this gun was sold to the U.S. Army as a spare part, the barrel assembly has never been found
and in over 40 years of world wide searching, I have not found a single actual 1923 gun. I did find a buttstock and
a forearm. At that time A-O required a minimum order of ten guns. If any one had ordered ten guns, it is
inconceivable that not one can be found today. If the 1923 Catalog gun was a working gun, why would A-O
have required a ten gun minimum order? They could have sold the one they had, if they had one? And if they
had actually manufactured one, it would have been easy to make more. Did they need the ten gun minimum
order to cover the tooling costs before they would commit to making the first gun?

What my research discovered was a totally different long barrel gun. This one had a finned heavy barrel
(but not as heavy as the 1923 barrel), a Colt R-75 bipod mounted in front of the front sight, no bayonet
lug, and a standard 1921 buttstock with a Springfield swivel. I found three examples of this gun in France,
Denmark and Russia. There is also a fourth - but not intact - gun in the West Point Museum. Another long
barrel gun is reported to be in China but I do not believe that it is an original A-O gun. The West Point gun has been
modified, the most notable reworks being a new pattern buttstock and an attempt to locate the bipod further to
the rear. My belief is that these four guns would have been referred to by A-O as the “Heavy Barrel Military
Model”, or as I named it, the Model of 1922 ,in keeping with the chronological years of introduction. The
1923 Catalog refers to the 1923 gun as the "Extra Heavy Barrel", therefore referring to the earlier gun as
the "Heavy Barrel" makes sense. A-O does not use the term “variance”. A-O calls the guns “models”.
Saying that the Finned Heavy Barrel/ColtR75 bipod/standard stock and the Smooth Extra Heavy barrel/Hotchkiss Bipod/in-line
stock guns and examining the catalog wording and concluding that the two are the same gun is beyond me.

Consider what probably happened. A-O wanted a long barrel gun to compete with the BAR. They came up
with the 1922 and went around the world trying to get orders. They demonstrated the gun (there is a photo of
George Goll demonstrating the gun.) and sold at least three of them. Why did the 1922 fail to get orders?
Two critical reasons: 1) There was no provision to mount a bayonet at a time when all long guns took bayonets,
and 2), the .45ACP cartridge was too under powered.

To solve the bayonet problem, the bipod had to be removed from the muzzle where the bayonet attaches.
The West Point 1922 clearly shows that the bipod was being relocated rearward, and the muzzle diameter
was reduced to accept a standard U.S. Army 1896 bayonet. The Hotchkiss bipod trunnion was redesigned
to fit the smaller Thompson barrel and a bayonet lug was added. I was given access to the French gun for
a whole day which enabled me to make engineering drawings. I also aquired R-75 bipods in hopes of putting
this model into production..

At least two 1922 barrels were re-chambered to .45 Remington-Thompson and installed on standard 1921
guns to be used to develop the cartridge. The barrel on one of those guns was destroyed by a “gunsmith” trying
to convert it back to .45 ACP. The other is in excellent condition and is in a collection. It is believed to be the
only gun in existence chambered for the .45 Remington-Thompson cartridge.

I have no idea why the 1923 was not a success. The 1923 was a good design and looked it. It could have been
the result of a lack of interest at A-O after the failure of the 1922. In a post-war world perhaps there was not
much interest in new guns. I acquired 1922 Hotchkiss bipods, M1896 bayonets, and made buttstocks and forends
with the intent to make M1923 guns but I ran out of time to complete the project.

My book, Thompson Submachine Gun - Models, addresses every model of Thompson gun that A-O sold
or hoped to sell. You might find it interesting.

On a personal note, I am locked down in Belize since December. I am still hoping to finish up a quantity
of Ultimax Thompson receivers that have been in work for a long time. I am trying to put together a list of
all the remaining Thompson parts that I have because I need to sell everything that is left and close down.
If you wish to contact me, please use the telephone. 310-457-6400 9-4 Texas time. Thank you.

Edited May 26, 2020 by reconbob

[rpbcps]

This morning I was looking through some old handbooks etc. and note that in the 1926 dated Model of 1921 handbook, and in the 1929 dated Models of 1921,1927 & 1928 Handbook, there is a reference to a modification. On the bottom of page 22 & continued on page 23, in both handbooks it reads:

"It is also to be noted that the Thompson Submachine Gun mechanism can be made up in quantities on special order for higher powered and pressured ammunition than indicated here."

It goes on to state, it is talking about military service ammunition, with heavier guns being provided with bipods.

 

When I looked at my 1930 AOC handbook, I noted that this paragraph has been removed and there is no reference to the heavier guns with bipods.

 

 

Inside my 'Pacific Arms Corporation' catalog, mentioned in earlier post, there is also an order form and a Price list. The price for the Military Model shown in the catalog, is given as $200.

 

Stay safe

Richard

[allweaponsww2]

Hello everybody! How about the fact that the Thompson M1923 was also tested for Germany in the 1920s. This is in the book "Sturmgever!" by R. Blake Stevens 2004. I did not know before that ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reichswehr tested three types of weapons from the AOC in 1924!

 

1. Thompson Semi-Auto M1923

 

 

2. Thompson M1921

 

3. Thompson M1923

 

[TD.]

allweaponsww2,

Great reserach. This is very interesting information. I would like to see the actual files regarding the testing to see if the serial numbers of the three guns were listed. If that information is available, I am surprised it is not referenced in the book. The serial numbers of the Military Model and Auto-Rifle would be noteworthy.

 

It is not surprising Germany was testing the Thompson gun in the 1920's. Auto-Ordnance Corporation filed Affidavits of Export on at least 615 Thompson guns with a destination of Hamburg, Germany.

 

15 guns on 9/23/1923

50 guns including or in addition to 3 military guns 11/22/1923

50 guns on 11/8/24

500 guns on 12/11/1924

 

The dispostion of these 615 or 618 Thompson guns is unknown. This information is from the Thompson Reference Collection.

 

[swat12]

hi all!  In order to refresh the topic of discussion, I want to share a link.  As for me, there are very interesting photos in the topic.

https://guns.allzip.org/topic/36/2787406.html