Jump to content


Photo

Opinions on possible Winchester M12 Trench 'Front Half'


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#21 Petroleum 1

Petroleum 1

    RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1107 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arizona / Colorado

Posted 06 November 2020 - 03:07 PM

Look at this incredible story. It still has the magazine tube bracket on it mounted underneath the heat shield.

https://www.gunsamer...7-trenchgun.htm

Edited by Petroleum 1, 06 November 2020 - 03:09 PM.

  • 0

#22 Bruce Canfield

Bruce Canfield

    Industry Expert

  • Regular Group
  • 40 posts

Posted 06 November 2020 - 07:53 PM

I've seen any number of M12 riot guns that were converted to trench guns, but never one where the conversion was confirmed as done by an Ordnance depot or arsenal using the original riot barrel. Bruce? 

 

Spare Ordnance inspection marked M12 trench barrels were fairly easily found until fairly recently, when the supply seemed to dry up all at once. Seems like the Ordnance department would have used these barrels for conversions, if conversions actually took place. With a WWII M12 serial number, trench barrel, and Winchester made bayonet mount, there'd be no way to tell whether the gun was originally produced in riot or trench configuration. Such records were evidently not kept.  

 I've heard for a long time that some Model 12 riot guns were converted to trench guns under US military auspices after WWII.  It may very well have happened but, like you, I have never encountered any official documentation to confirm it.


  • 1

#23 TSMGguy

TSMGguy

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2732 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West of the Pecos, Texas
  • Interests:Motorcycles, old airplanes, and guns.

Posted 07 November 2020 - 09:08 AM

I've seen any number of M12 riot guns that were converted to trench guns, but never one where the conversion was confirmed as done by an Ordnance depot or arsenal using the original riot barrel. Bruce? 

 

Spare Ordnance inspection marked M12 trench barrels were fairly easily found until fairly recently, when the supply seemed to dry up all at once. Seems like the Ordnance department would have used these barrels for conversions, if conversions actually took place. With a WWII M12 serial number, trench barrel, and Winchester made bayonet mount, there'd be no way to tell whether the gun was originally produced in riot or trench configuration. Such records were evidently not kept.  

 I've heard for a long time that some Model 12 riot guns were converted to trench guns under US military auspices after WWII.  It may very well have happened but, like you, I have never encountered any official documentation to confirm it.

Thank you!


  • 0

#24 TSMGguy

TSMGguy

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2732 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West of the Pecos, Texas
  • Interests:Motorcycles, old airplanes, and guns.

Posted 07 November 2020 - 09:15 AM

I've seen two Winchester shotgun receipts from the Title X sales conduced by the Anniston Army Depot in 1991. Wish I'd thought to download these, but I didn't. I noticed that the paperwork listed only the serial numbers, not the models. The configuration, trench or riot, was not listed that I recall.

 

Edit: Here's one. Thanks, P.W.Browning

 

Attached File  jeCgFOV.jpeg   111.98K   5 downloads


Edited by TSMGguy, 07 November 2020 - 09:23 AM.

  • 0

#25 Tom D

Tom D

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 32 posts

Posted 07 November 2020 - 02:01 PM

I've seen any number of M12 riot guns that were converted to trench guns, but never one where the conversion was confirmed as done by an Ordnance depot or arsenal using the original riot barrel. Bruce? 

 

Spare Ordnance inspection marked M12 trench barrels were fairly easily found until fairly recently, when the supply seemed to dry up all at once. Seems like the Ordnance department would have used these barrels for conversions, if conversions actually took place. With a WWII M12 serial number, trench barrel, and Winchester made bayonet mount, there'd be no way to tell whether the gun was originally produced in riot or trench configuration. Such records were evidently not kept.  

There was a post WWII government directive to convert non-compliant shotguns to trench guns.  From what I remember, it mentions the use of a sleeve on Model 12 shotguns to make the bayonet adaptor fit properly.  I think I have photos somewhere of barrels with the added sleeve.

 

As far as telling whether a gun was converted or not, first off, most of the Model 12 riot guns fall into a lower serial number range than the trench guns.  The subject gun has a higher serial number (i.e., 1020177) which leads me to believe it was originally assembled as a trench gun.  Secondly, converted guns will still have the barrel band for the takedown mechanism on them.  Trench gun barrels do not have that band.


Edited by Tom D, 07 November 2020 - 02:34 PM.

  • 0