Savage Restores U.K. Bound Sea Damaged Colt TSMGs

[TD.]

 

I wonder how many of those 748 Savage Thompsons were in the 15,000 serial number range.

 

Gordon Herigstad's contrary conclusion that the British order of 750 TSMGS were among the 4,250 Colt TSMGs exported in 1940 seems more plausible especially factoring in the history of AOC's time table of actually shipping out foreign orders months after they were placed even when they had the TSMGs in stock as was the case in the French order. That some of the 750 were in the 15,000 serial number range is indeed likely. But it is more likely they were Colts in that range that arrived in mid April rather than Savages.

 

Gordon's contrary conclusion omitted a critical piece of documentation that was published in The Ultimate Thompson Book in 2009 (and earlier in Small Arms Review (SAR) magazine. The documentation is referenced on the top of page 290 and is contained in the chapter, Colt Thompsons in Swedish Service. On or about January 18, 1940, Auto-Ordnance officials told the British Supply Board that 600 Thompson guns without compensators were available for purchase for $175 per gun. Compensators were $25 more. This same documentation was included in Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story on page 2, footnote 3. Of course, the Swedish government purchased 500 of these 600 available Colt's as Model of 1928 A or without compensators.

 

The two Colt's shipped on March 14, 1940 to the Director of Artillery, Ministry of Supply (MoS), were to be used in the "fabrication of carrying chests (page 3, footnotes 15 and 17)." The reason I know these two Thompsons were Colt's is because the first Savage guns were not completed until April 1940. And yes, 180 of the first 201 Savage Thompson guns were shipped to Great Britain on April 16, 1940.

 

The first documented receipt of Thompson guns by the British military after the shipment of the two Colt's in March 1940 was the 180 Savage Thompson guns shipped on April 16th. It took 5 shipments to complete the first British order of 750 guns. The first 10 or 11 pages of GB - TTGS replaces all the conjecture published and banded about for years regarding Colt guns being shipped to Great Britain in the early days of the war. Unfortunately, Gordon was very sick when GB - TTGS was first published. I am fairly certain he never read the book. I would have enjoyed our discussion. One reason for the footnotes is to show documentation exists to support what actually transpired in 1939 and 1940. That said, I know some will always believe otherwise, perhaps even Gordon. And I am OK with that!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Gordon's contrary conclusion omitted a critical piece of documentation that was published in The Ultimate Thompson Book in 2009 (and earlier in Small Arms Review (SAR) magazine. The documentation is referenced on the top of page 290 and is contained in the chapter, Colt Thompsons in Swedish Service.

 

The two Colt's shipped on March 14, 1940 to the Director of Artillery, Ministry of Supply (MoS), were to be used in the "fabrication of carrying chests (page 3, footnotes 15 and 17)." The reason I know these two Thompsons were Colt's is because the first Savage guns were not completed until April 1940. And yes, 180 of the first 201 Savage Thompson guns were shipped to Great Britain on April 16, 1940.

 

I am fairly certain he never read the book.

 

"Present position 600 without compensator available now."

This January 18, 1940 telegram from the United Kingdom High Commissioner in Canada seems to be the sine qua non for negating the reasonable conclusion that the first TSMGs to arrive in the U.K. from the USA were of Colt manufacture. This is not a telegram from Auto-Ordnance Corporation stating that the entire lot of TSMGs consists of a total of 600.

 

Auto-Ordnance Corporation puts out a brand new catalog in 1940 advertising the immediate availability of Colt MODEL 1928A and Colt MODEL 1928AC. No indication that perspective buyers had better hurry as there are only 600 ( or only 100 depending when this catalog came out in early 1940) still available. Did AOC inform the Swedes that there were only 600 total TSMGs in inventory when they submitted their two orders the first for 500? Why wouldn't they have grabbed another 100 MODEL 1921A knowing that was all there would be until some unknown point in the future?

 

G.H. certainly read Hill's 2009 TUTB as he includes in his 2014 book a special gratitude to Tracie Hill and Richard Karlson for "concerted effort in Norway, Denmark and Sweden, researching and retrieving lost Colt Thompson history in that part of the world." G.H., like others, no doubt read the "600 without compensators" and did not interpret that to mean there are a total of 600 of any type Colt TSMGs in inventory.

 

The type of Colt TSMGs required for the "fabrication of carrying chests" (see photo from Imperial War Museum) were with Cutts Compensators and this is why they couldn't borrow any examples from the supply of French Colt MODEL 1921A? But this would mean that AOC had in stock Colt MODEL 1928AC ready to ship out in March for the Brits to take measurements.

 

G.H. also no doubt read another passage in Hill's TUTB.

 

"French researcher/author Jean Huon stated that the French order of 3,700 were delivered to France February, 1940.-and that they were mostly 1921A and a few "previously reconfigured MODEL 1928s"

 

If the 3,700, not the 3,000 were accurate that would set up an additional problem for AOC filling the Swedish order of 500. How many MODEL 1928AC that were previously reconfigured is what is missing from the United Kingdom High Commissioner in Canada telegram.

 

 

SAVAGE ARMS MODEL OF 1928 A THOMPSON SUBMACHINE GUN

By Tom Davis, Jr.

"One of the most interesting pictures of 1928 style Thompsons without compensators was found at the British Hulton Archive of pictures. It is titled: Two members of the Home Guard, armed with American Thompson sub-machine or 'Tommy' guns, during training at a rifle range in Western Command. The date of the picture, 1/1/1939, is incorrect as the Local Defence Volunteers or LDV was not established until May 17, 1940 and later renamed the Home Guard on July 22, 1940. The two Thompson guns without compensators are clearly visible."

 

 

"...procurement of Savage Model of 1928 A Thompsons (without compensators) by the British government.

The Ministry of Supply, SUPP 4-310 – Contract Record Books at the British National Archives are clearly dated 8.10.40.

 

There have been no 1928 A models observed that appear to have been manufactured after November 1940."

 

According to this officially correct document any TSMGs that appear in any newsreel/photo in Britain without a Cutts and with a horizontal foregrip before October, 1940 is unequivocally a Colt 1921/28A. That includes Home Guards armed with these in the Summer of 1940, yes

 

The Colt 1928A #14733 in the Imperial War Museum is stamped on left of receiver with a British Purchasing Commission acquisitions/British inspection mark broad arrow over crown, over E over 6 (?) over '40. Any thoughts?

 

What was the total number of Savage TSMGs available to be shipped out Tuesday, April 19, 1940? If the total for the month of April was 201, that would mean there were 100 available end of work week April 15 to be prepared for cosmoline treatment and crating. Even if you pump up that half month total to 150, how would it be possible for Savage to have 180 complete MODEL 1928AC ready at that moment in time and not include Colt TSMGs?

 

You sort of attempt to answer this question by referring to a letter 7 months removed from April, 1940 delivery.

 

"One question that has never been answered is what happened to the remaining 100 Colt manufactured Thompson guns in Auto-Ordnance inventory after the Swedish government made the 500 Thompson gun purchase. Why not ship these remaining 100 Colt guns to the British as part of their initial order? A partial answer to this question may be found in a letter from the British Purchasing Commission, the organization responsible for purchasing arms and war supplies from North American manufacturers, to the Ministry of Supply, dated November 6, 1940."

 

Now jump to this non sequitor:

 

'149 new guns and 40 reconditioned second hand guns were to be provided to the British government free of charge by Auto-Ordnance as a penalty for not meeting the delivery schedule."

 

How could these "reconditioned second hand guns" refer to the 100 Colt MODEL 1921/28A left over from the available 600 Colt TSMGs the United Kingdom High Commissioner in Canada claimed were all that was left in AOC inventory? This would mean that the 500 Colt MODEL 1928A purchased by Sweden were second hand as well.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

Arthur,

What you may not understand is the file(s) found at the National Archives by James West were not in any type order that allowed for complete comprehension of what actually transpired during the early days of the war. It took several years to read and comprehend the material and make it understandable for the reader. I found out later that Gordon had a look at some of these files before I did. Apparently, he decided it was not worth the effort to tell the story. Or he had other irons in the fire that involved Colt Thompsons. It also became obvious other authors had cherry picked certain details from the files over the years but never understood the complete context of the documentation. All your conjecture and what if's were valid points years ago when the complete story was not known. Some of my early thoughts were quite similar. However, the truth is now available for all to read. Perhaps, additional documentation or incontrovertible evidence will surface in the future that will change or modify some of what I have written. To date, that has not happened. Not one word of Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story has been shown to be incorrect (other than a few typos and grammar errors). One reason for the footnotes is to show documentation exists to support what actually transpired in 1939 and 1940. That said, I know some will always believe otherwise, perhaps even you and Gordon. And I am OK with that!

 

As a side note, sales of GB-TTGS have recently taken an uptick. Perhaps this thread is the reason!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

One reason for the footnotes is to show documentation exists to support what actually transpired in 1939 and 1940.

 

As a side note, sales of GB-TTGS have recently taken an uptick. Perhaps this thread is the reason!

 

Good to hear sales of GB-TTGS have been revitalized. If this thread can assume the blame, or rather credit, so much the better. Your book certainly raised additional questions in the pursuit of the "complete story."

 

Here's the thing. Real time generated documentation is always preferred to recollections decades after the fact. Hamblin's recollection is the catalyst for this thread But human error still exists in the recording of documents by bureaucratic bean counters as is demonstrated in your GB-TTGS. Citations of a reference work in support of the main text does help the reader understand the origin for the author's conclusions.

 

Another form of a citation (footnote) for the purpose of this discussion, that is just as compelling as a real time document, is the existence of an actual Colt 1928A Thompson that proves AOC included Colt TSMGs to Great Britain along with Savage MODEL 1928 to bring the number up to 180 units by April 16, 1940.

 

You did cite Colt 1928A #14733 (with 2nd model Cutts) in your "Colt Thompsons in Swedish Service" while omitting description of the telltale markings. Not saying this was an example of "cherry-picking" as you may not have had all the relevant information regarding the markings on #14733 .

 

You describe the Colt thusly:

 

"...the original purchaser(s) and configuration of both of these guns (15025 and 14733) when they left the factory is unknown."

 

While this may be true regarding #15025, it certainly is not the case with #14733.

 

What other possible explanation can there be for the existence of the British Purchasing Commission* acquisition inspection mark of a "broad arrow over crown, over E over 6 (?) over '40" on the left side of the receiver aside form this being an example of Britain purchasing from AOC this Colt 1928 TSMG(s) in 1940.

 

*

"The Inspection Board of the United Kingdom and Canada was formed 26 October 1940 and held its first meeting 15 November 1940. With equal representation of both countries,Its headquarters were in Ottawa, and it had an office in New York City. It was to inspect the production of war goods and resources, supplies and stores in Canada and the United States."

[TD.]

Here's the thing, as stated on page 3 and page 8 of, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story, two (2) Colt manufactured Thompson guns were included in the original 750 gun British order. It took five shipments to complete this first order. The second through the fifth shipments fit perfectly with the known Savage production of the Thompson gun.

 

NO 14733 is certainly an interesting Colt's. Unfortunately, there is no known past history. That said, I have no doubt NO 14733 ended up in Great Britain in 1940. Gordon published NO 14733 and NO 15025 appear to be part of the Swedish order. Gordon is speculating, or worse, guessing. He has no documentation of evidence of this. It is not something I would publish. I find NO 14988 to be equally as interesting. Perhaps, one day I will be able to find out the real story - and publish it.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

It took five shipments to complete this first order. The second through the fifth shipments fit perfectly with the known Savage production of the Thompson gun.

 

NO 14733 is certainly an interesting Colt's. Unfortunately, there is no known past history. That said, I have no doubt NO 14733 ended up in Great Britain in 1940. Gordon published NO 14733 and NO 15025 appear to be part of the Swedish order. Gordon is speculating, or worse, guessing.

 

But it is that first Savage shipment of 180 to AOC in April 16, 1940 where the numbers do not add up if they do not include the left over 100 out of the 500 Colt TSMGs the United Kingdom High Commissioner in Canada mentions in his telegram. What explanation did you find in the archives in the U.S. or G.B. that eliminates at least these 100 Colts from consisting of the bulk of the 180 shipment? It certainly couldn't be the actual serial numbers of the TSMGs as those are not mentioned. Why wouldn't those 100(?) Colts, that the Brits had knowledge of, still be available April 16, 1940 as they were in February and March?

 

When did Savage start manufacturing in April? April Fools Day? The following Monday April 8? That date is not mentioned in periodicals. In order to make all the 180 Savage TSMGs available by April 16, did Savage only produce an additional 21 TSMGs over the last 13 week days of the month to wind up with 201 total? Is it logical they were turning out fewer TSMGs during the 2nd half of the month?

 

Aside from your unresolved issues with G.H., the past history of Colt #14733 is no more a mystery than the two (2) Colt TSMGs you continue to maintain were the only examples sent from AOC to G.B. in 1940 or beyond. Whether there is or isn't a connection to the Swedish order is irrelevant. You can check all the boxes on #14733 just as you did on the two (2) Colts shipped in March.

 Manufacturer: Colt

 Model Type: 1928 (A) but with Cutts Compensator added

 Location: G.B.

 Original Purchaser: British Purchasing Commission

 Serial Number: 14733

 Date: 1940

 

Here is Colt 1921 #7882 with a buttstock swivel location favored by Brits in a Swedish museum that does not have the "A" stamp.

 

[TD.]

I believe and have documented the numbers do add up. However, your welcome to believe otherwise. I encourage you to publish your own story. And I do appreciate you purchasing my book.

 

What museum in Sweden has NO 7882 on display?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

What museum in Sweden has NO 7882 on display?

 

Faktorimuseet in Eskilstuna.

 

Couldn't find any information in the text or footnotes of GB:TTGS regarding Savage production numbers by end of week April 12, 1940 or the disposition of the 100 Colt TSMGs (left over from the 600) available for immediate delivery the U.K. High Commissioner in Canada mentions in his February telegram.

 

You did throw a bone to the G.H. faithful with an entire page devoted to Colt U.S. Navy #4328. Seems a lot of space for a non Savage/AOC TSMG considering the Colt TSMGs are interlopers in The British Tommy Gun Story.

 

The total Savage production of TSMGs in 1940 was just under 43,000. If Savage continued with the Colt serial number 15,041, that would put the serial number of Savage TSMGs in the 58,000(?) range by January, 1941. The Savage MODEL 1928A do not appear in photos in Great Britain until March, 1941. The date the Savage MODEL 1928A was ordered by the Brits is October 8, 1940. Yet Savage MODEL 1928A on display in G.B. are S-17359 and S-16739.

 

For there to have been 4,560 Savage TSMGs already in G.B., or on there way, by end of Summer 1940, as stated in the National Archives, these Savage 1928A examples would be above the 20,000 serial numbers to coincide with the October 8, 1940 date of The Ministry of Supply, SUPP 4-310-Contract Record Books at the British National Archives. Why would a Savage in the 16,000 serial number range still be in inventory as late as October, 1940 when over 4,000 Savage TSMGs left the factory for G.B. by August, 1940?

[TD.]

I have known about NO 7882 for a long time. I don't believe it is on display in a museum in Sweden...but it really does not matter.

 

So now you are looking at pictures. I do find pictures are important, especially the ones on Pages 19 & 20 in Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. It was nice being able to view the markings on the right side receiver and determine the Thompson in the picture was a Savage 1928A. Coupled with the documentation James West found at the National Archives, everything fell into place.

 

I can tell you are possessed in proving some Colt's had to be included in the second shipment to Great Britain of the 180 guns that set sail on April 16, 1940. (The first shipment was the two Colt's that were shipped on March 14, 1940.) The production dates and figures from Savage Arms do not establish or even support your hypothesis. And more importantly, no earlier shipments involving Thompson guns were recorded in documentation at the National Archives. The forty second-hand guns given to the British as a penalty for not meeting the contract provisions of the second French contract put a pretty big dent in the possible 100 remaining Colt's There is also one recorded order in January 1940 for 8 Colt's to the US Marine Corps - see page 168 of American Thunder II. And the 2 Colt's shipped on March 14th.

 

I have established the first order by the British of 750 guns was made up of 748 Savage Thompson guns in the 15,000 serial number range and two Colt's - all delivered as per documentation. I have only been able to document three surviving Savage Thompson guns in the 15,000 serial number range, none in original condition, and one frame. But I encourage you to keep looking for those Colt's as I do enjoy the conversation.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Coupled with the documentation James West found at the National Archives, everything fell into place.

 

The production dates and figures from Savage Arms do not establish or even support your hypothesis.

 

There is also one recorded order in January 1940 for 8 Colt's to the US Marine Corps

 

 

Does James West post on this board? Perhaps he could furnish the Savage document that states when they started production in April and when they had completed 180 Savage TSMGs in time to be shipped out by April, 16, 1940. That would surely settle this mystery.

 

Still confused how S-17359 and S-16739. would be MODEL 1928A when the Brits didn't order 1928 TSMGs without Cutts until October, 1940. Why would these first couple thousand Savages still be in Savage inventory in October when Savage had shipped out over 4,000 TSMGs by early August?

 

January and February of 1940 were busy months for AOC. In December 1939, AOC subcontracted with Savage to make TSMGs. While many of the machines to manufacture the Colt TSMG were still at Colt in the beginning of 1940, AOC was moving equipment to the Utica, New York plant in December, January, February, etc. This would suggest that Savage had the remaining Colt TSMGs at their factory by 1940. Would that not be the location for where the Colt 1921A TSMGs were converted to MODEL 1928A?

 

As for the U.S.M.C. order for Colt MODEL 1928AC Navy in January, 1940, was that before or after the January 18, 1940 U.K. High Commissioner in Canada telegram? Did these already have type II Cutts fixed (which would be outside the number of "600 without compensators available now" as mentioned in the telegram) or did Savage install Cutts Compensators on Colt TSMGs as well as replace the actuator, spring, pilot/buffer in the remaining stock of Colt TSMGS to make them MODEL1928?

[TD.]

The Briish wanted vertical fore grips on the first order of 750 Thompson guns. The first shipment were the two Colt guns in March 1940. As documented, the second and largest shipment to date of 180 guns were equipped with horizontal fore grips. Auto-Ordnance promised the remaining guns in the first order would be equipped with vertical fore grips.

 

What does that tell us. Most likely, Savage perfected the production of the horizontal fore grip prior to the vertical fore grip. Savage guns were shipped from the factory in Utica, New York. Any remaining Colt guns would have been located at the Colt plant in Hartford, Connecticut. These remaining Colt guns, if new, would have been Model of 1921As and equipped with vertical fore grips installed in 1922. Aside from having to convert the Model of 1921s to Model of 1928, AOC employees would have had to have removed the vertical fore grips, purchased, and installed horizontal fore grips (which the British did not order or want) and coordinate the shipment to the port so all the guns could be loaded at one time on the S.S. Eastern Prince. At this point in time, Auto-Ordnance had recently completed the Swedish Order so there would have been at least 500 unused vertical fore grips sitting in piles in the AOC space. This in itself shows there was little or no coordination between AOC in Hartford and Savage in Utica. What happened to all the extra parts and spares at Hartford. Most likely, everything that could be sold as spares was sold as spares. The remaining assets were packed away and shipped to the AOC space at Utica or the new Auto-Ordnance plant in Bridgeport.

 

I am not confused one bit.

[Mike Hammer]

Whew...

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

This in itself shows there was little or no coordination between AOC in Hartford and Savage in Utica.

 

What happened to all the extra parts and spares at Hartford. Most likely, everything that could be sold as spares was sold as spares. The remaining assets were packed away and shipped to the AOC space at Utica or the new Auto-Ordnance plant in Bridgeport.

 

The November 28, 1939 letter from Colts Executive VP H.D. Fairweather to Savage Arms VP F.F. Hickey indicates there was a congenial relationship between the first subcontractor of the TSMG and the second subcontractor of the TSMG. This is a month before AOC signed the contract with Savage to manufacture 10,000 TSMGs.

 

Why would any Colt TSMGs or AOC employees still be operating out of the cramped quarters at the Colt Hartford location by January, 1940 when Maguire had his subcontracted plant in Utica to process orders?

 

How many AOC employees were still hanging out at the Hartford location and how much time did it require to have transformed MODEL OF 1921 into the nearly 1000 Colt "U.S. MODEL OF 1928 A1" TSMGs ordered by the U.S. Army in June 1939? The last reference to AOC still having an office and store room at Colts Hartford plant is Summer of 1938. By the end of December, 1939, everything that wasn't still required by Colt to make spare parts for the Colt TSMG was moved to the Utica, New York plant. That would mean the remaining Colt TSMG inventory including the parts required to make a 1921 into a 1928AC or A. This would make it easy for Savage to make-up the order for 180 TSMGs to be shipped out April 16, 1940.

 

We know that Savage also had no qualms making use of Colt TSMG receivers and parts as they stamped the serial numbers #2594, #7822 and #7886 on Colt manufactured and marked receivers and Savage NO. S-15960 has a Colt/Remington frame grip.

 

It seems the only recorded date associated with Savage production during the month of April is the Schedule 1 agreement between Savage and AOC dated April 23, 1940. Do you know of an earlier date recorded somewhere?

 

The memoirs of Eugene Daniel Powers, Russell Maguire's attorney, stated that during the enforcement period of the U.S. Neutrality Act, George Goll in the Fall of 1939 smuggled several Colt TSMGs into Canada to be shipped to the U.K. for "testing." Guess you can the number of "several" (more than 2 less than 5?) to the 2 Colt TSMGs shipped to the Brits in March, 1940.

 

You do recognize Powers as a reliable source as he is mentioned in glowing terms in your "THE KILGORE MFG. COMPANY, WESTERVILLE OHIO" article.

 

"Unfortunately, the years after World War II were not very kind to Maguire Industries. Part of the reason may have been the loss of his Executive VP and Chief Operating Officer, Eugene Powers, who left Maguire Industries in June 1945. Powers had been with Maguire since the beginning of the Thompson venture; he was actively involved in the negotiations to purchase the Auto-Ordnance Corporation and the creation of the Thompson Automatic Arms Company. By 1949, Maguire Industries was having serious monetary losses. Powers came back to Maguire Industries in 1950, shortly after the sale of the Thompson, and returned the corporation to profitability."

[TD.]

That is a lot of supposing and wishful thinking. Of course, that is all it is. I have documented what I know happened and footnoted the source. Everything seems to fit. But again, your welcome to believe what you want.

 

We don't know Savage used any Colt receivers to meet their production goals. NO 2594 is a Model of 1923 Thompson gun. I don't think Savage was involved in the Auto-Ordnance Model of 1923 program. There is no documentation about NO 7822 or NO 7886 ever being at the Savage plant - only speculation. I am not convinced these are even Colt receivers but I don't want to speculate.

 

Maybe the Goll smuggling adventure involving Canada allowed the British military to provide the six Colt's to the British Expeditionary Force in France in late 1939. I did add these into the number of possible Colt's sent to Great Britain during World War II - See pages 107 & 108 of GB - TTGS.

 

All good stuff!!!

 

 

[AlanDavid]

This is one of the best threads on the forum at the moment and on a topic I have some interest in. There are lots of interesting comments , it would take a long time to multi quote and respond to the various points so I will just make some overall comments, which will probably raise more questions than answers.

I have read the large file at the National Archives in London a couple of times and photographed some parts of it, but not the whole thing. The file is in date order with each page numbered in colored pencil or crayon. Like most of the files in any national archive it is not 100% complete, but it is the best file that we have. So a few points.

I do believe that of the 750 guns initially, only 2 of these were Colt made guns, the rest Savage. In the big file there is correspondence which states that the original order of 750 guns - which was really two orders of 300 and 450 - is cancelled and replaced by a new order for 750 guns. These no doubt being new manufacture by Savage. In fact 748 would be supplied as two were already received and were of Colt guns.

One of the reasons given in the earlier correspondence for getting two guns ahead of the main order was for use in preparing training pamphlets. My example of the British July 1940 TSMG Small Arms Training Pamphlet is not to hand, but if memory serves it has illustrations showing a Model 1928 with the horizontal forend.

This is the same configuration as 14733 in the Imperial War Museum This has the Enfield inspection mark and separate to this a '40 mark, which I take to be 1940. There is a probability that this is one of the two guns shipped in March. I have examined this gun myself and by chance was there when Gordon H was visiting the museum and watched him strip the gun down and examine it in front of the small arms curator. We will never know for sure if it is one of the two Colt guns shipped, but there seems to be fairly strong circumstantial evidence it is.

As far as British military marked Colt made guns are concerned, I am only aware of two. 14733 and another one posted on this forum years ago the photo for which I cant locate at the moment but was I think in the 8XXX serial number range.There are a couple of ways this may have entered the British military system but this would be speculative and I wont go into this topic now. Perhaps someone can post a photo if they still have it? So that's it only two British ordnance marked Colt made guns.

The earliest Savage made gun I have seen with British ordnance markings is S-15795 which had a verticle pistol grip, but this could have been a replacement.

Finally, onto the French order. In the big file in London is a letter perfectlly typed on wafer thin Air Mail paper from Auto Ordnance pitching the British government on placing an order for some Thompson guns and referring to an order they had for 3,000 guns for France. Interestingly, Jean Huon quotes a figure in his book/s of 3750 as being ordered by France. When I corresponded with Mr Huon he told me this information came from the National Archives in France, as one would expect. This research was dome over 20 years ago and he did not still have a copy of this he could send me. I have no reason to doubt what Mr Huon has published. Interestingly when I was in College Park a few years ago looking for information on British Purchasing Commission orders, low and behold was the same figure quoted in some American government documents dated 1940. Before everyone jumps up and down and says that this figure of 3750 does not gel with the known inventory of guns in the AO warehouse in 1939/1940, that is correct, but it does not mean that the order for 3750 guns was not placed, it would mean that it was not fully filled and/or was modified or reduced.

An example of this is the order from the British government to Colt in WW1 for 6,000 Vickers guns in .303 calibre. This order appears in numerous reports and projections in files in the National Archives in London, but not a single gun was made never mind delivered.

Hope the above is of some interest.

If anyone has seen another Colt made gun with British ordnance markings not mentioned above, please post the details!

 

Regards

Alan

Edited September 8, 2019 by AlanDavid

[rpbcps]

My copies of the British 1940 Small Arms Training Pamphlet No. 21 is also not to hand, however there are some pictures in this post:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21771&hl=

 

It does contain pictures of TSMGs with both horizontal and vertical foregrips... and the Thompson in the photos is a Colt era example, which can be identified by the markings on the receiver.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited September 8, 2019 by rpbcps

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I do believe that of the 750 guns initially, only 2 of these were Colt made guns, the rest Savage.

 

Interestingly, Jean Huon quotes a figure in his book/s of 3750 as being ordered by France. When I corresponded with Mr Huon he told me this information came from the National Archives in France, as one would expect.

 

Before everyone jumps up and down and says that this figure of 3750 does not gel with the known inventory of guns in the AO warehouse in 1939/1940, that is correct, but it does not mean that the order for 3750 guns was not placed, it would mean that it was not fully filled and/or was modified or reduced.

 

Regards

Alan

 

Alan,

Thanks for confirming the source for Jean Huron's 3750 figure that is mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

As you say, this figure did cause later consternation for researchers who couldn't reconcile that figure being correct when tallying the estimated 4,700 Colt TSMGs left in inventory at the end of 1939 to be divided up between the U.S. Army, French and Swedish orders. This was resolved by lowering the figure to 3,000 rather than raising the 4,700 inventory figure to over 5,200.

 

The Swedish order runs the gamut of Colt serial numbers from the low of #2091, #2291 to #15025.

 

Regarding the 180 order that left Savage Utica, New York on April 16, 1940, we still do not have any confirmation when Savage started production in April and how many MODEL OF 1928 TSMGs they had available by that date out of the 201 total for the month. Rather than allow for a 100 more or less Colt TSMGs to bring that order up to 180, it is necessary to imagine Savage initial month of operation produced way more units in the first two weeks (or less) than the last two weeks of the month. Without this sort of documentation the narrative is modified to increase production early in the month (as opposed to decreasing the French order) to make it all even out.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

My copies of the British 1940 Small Arms Training Pamphlet No. 21 is also not to hand, however there are some pictures in this post:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21771&hl=

 

It does contain pictures of TSMGs with both horizontal and vertical foregrips... and the Thompson in the photos is a Colt era example, which can be identified by the markings on the receiver.

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

Richard,

 

The date on the cover of British 1940 Small Arms Training Pamphlet No. 21 is July 3, 1940 and yet it is a Colt TSMG with horizontal grip used for illustration purposes. In the same month, the first sighting of the Savage MODEL 1928 with Cutts, L drum, and horizontal foregrips is in the British Pathe film "This Is A Tommy Gun" released July 11, 1940. The William Clowes & Sons Ltd. did not have a Savage TSMG available before they went to press?

[rpbcps]

 

My copies of the British 1940 Small Arms Training Pamphlet No. 21 is also not to hand, however there are some pictures in this post:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21771&hl=

 

It does contain pictures of TSMGs with both horizontal and vertical foregrips... and the Thompson in the photos is a Colt era example, which can be identified by the markings on the receiver.

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

Richard,

 

The date on the cover of British 1940 Small Arms Training Pamphlet No. 21 is July 3, 1940 and yet it is a Colt TSMG with horizontal grip used for illustration purposes. In the same month, the first sighting of the Savage MODEL 1928 with Cutts, L drum, and horizontal foregrips is in the British Pathe film "This Is A Tommy Gun" released July 11, 1940. The William Clowes & Sons Ltd. did not have a Savage TSMG available before they went to press?

 

Arthur,

Perhaps it was just 'pot luck' and the first one that came to hand, when they were looking for a model to photograph, for inclusion in the pamphlet. I would think that they were not concerned with, what at the time were 'minor' details such as manufacturers markings.

 

We can presume that the limited number of Thompsons they had available, where in high demand at the time, not only for service use / training, but also being used for propaganda purposes, as we see in the many periodicals from that time, and the film you mention above.

 

As a footnote, while serving in different parts of Africa in the 1980's, we used Kalashnikovs on a number of occasions, but it was not until much later, as a civilian, that I learned that different countries manufactured AKs, with different markings on them. In the 1980's that was not a concern to us, we required weapons that operated and had a plentiful supply of suitable ammunition, and the markings on them were not even considered, by me anyway.

 

Stay safe

Richard

[AlanDavid]

 

 

My copies of the British 1940 Small Arms Training Pamphlet No. 21 is also not to hand, however there are some pictures in this post:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21771&hl=

 

It does contain pictures of TSMGs with both horizontal and vertical foregrips... and the Thompson in the photos is a Colt era example, which can be identified by the markings on the receiver.

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

Richard,

 

The date on the cover of British 1940 Small Arms Training Pamphlet No. 21 is July 3, 1940 and yet it is a Colt TSMG with horizontal grip used for illustration purposes. In the same month, the first sighting of the Savage MODEL 1928 with Cutts, L drum, and horizontal foregrips is in the British Pathe film "This Is A Tommy Gun" released July 11, 1940. The William Clowes & Sons Ltd. did not have a Savage TSMG available before they went to press?

 

Arthur,

Perhaps it was just 'pot luck' and the first one that came to hand, when they were looking for a model to photograph, for inclusion in the pamphlet. I would think that they were not concerned with, what at the time were 'minor' details such as manufacturers markings.

 

We can presume that the limited number of Thompsons they had available, where in high demand at the time, not only for service use / training, but also being used for propaganda purposes, as we see in the many periodicals from that time, and the film you mention above.

 

As a footnote, while serving in different parts of Africa in the 1980's, we used Kalashnikovs on a number of occasions, but it was not until much later, as a civilian, that I learned that different countries manufactured AKs, with different markings on them. In the 1980's that was not a concern to us, we required weapons that operated and had a plentiful supply of suitable ammunition, and the markings on them were not even considered, by me anyway.

 

Stay safe

Richard

The request for early dispatch of two sample guns - which had to be Colt manufacture in February/March - was for among other reasons, the production of training manuals. Production and the writing of these pamphlets takes a while, no time to waste waiting for the first shipment of 180 (178) guns in a few months time. So it is not random that this Thompson in the photo with a horizontal forend is a Colt gun. I only wish the serial number could be read. Perhaps it is the same as the one in the Imperial War Museum? Could be another one that was located from within the UK, perhaps from Parker Hale who did advertise them in one of there catalogues or BSA who seemed to be the UK agent for some years, no way of knowing unless a high resolution copy of the photo turns up allowing the s/n to be read.

Arthur, I agree that some of the first 180 guns, in addition to the 2 that had to be Colts, could also have been Colt made guns as well. There is no definitive proof either way, unless a list of serial numbers of the first shipment turns up in an obscure file in the U.K. or U.S.A. Unlikely I know but these things do happen. I have found the list of 200 serial numbers for the second shipment of Colt made AR15's that the U.K. purchased in around 1963. The first shipment was for 100 rifles, I have not located this list - worst luck.

Anyway this has been a really good thread if you are into British service stuff. Personally, I still think and its only an opinion that the 178 guns of the 180 first shipment were Savage made, based mainly on the combined order of 750 guns being cancelled and then a fresh order for the same number being placed. Also the lack of surviving Colt guns with British ordnance markings, which in the 14,XXX serial number range is precisely one known example. As I said none of this is proof, just circumstantial.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Richard

Arthur, I agree that some of the first 180 guns, in addition to the 2 that had to be Colts, could also have been Colt made guns as well. There is no definitive proof either way, unless a list of serial numbers of the first shipment turns up in an obscure file in the U.K. or U.S.A.

 

Exactly!

 

There is also an alternate route the Colt Tommy Gun made it to Great Britain during the early days of WWII that didn't pass through AOC or Savage in Utica, New York.

 

On page 164 in Des Turner's "Station 12: SOE'S Secret Weapons Center," SOE agent Arthur Christie, who was assigned to the laboratory at Aston House in April 1940, describes the weapons American private citizens donated to the British war effort.

 

"Shortly after Dunkirk, the Arms to Britain campaign started in America. This was a gesture of support to help us with the war effort. As a result of this, we received boxes and boxes of arms. There were all kinds of rifles, revolvers, pistols, automatics, sub-machine guns, and a Colt machine gun that had last seen action in the Cuban/American War. Alf and I had to unpack them all and of course try them out."

 

 

November 1940 American Rifleman:

 

SEND A GUN TO DEFEND A BRITISH HOME: British civilians, faced with threat of invasion, desperately need arms for defense of their homes. THE AMERICAN COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF BRITISH HOMES has organized to collect gifts of pistols, rifles, revolvers, shotguns, binoculars from American civilians who wish to answer the call and aide in defense of British homes. The arms are being shipped with the consent of the British Government, to CIVILIAN COMMITTEE FOR PROTECTION OF HOMES, BIRMINGHAM, ENGLAND"

 

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/28/throwback-thursday-send-a-gun-to-defend-a-british-home/

[TD.]

The Swedish order runs the gamut of Colt serial numbers from the low of #2091, #2291 to #15025.

 

Interesting. Regardless of all the documentation indicating the first Savage manufactured Thompson guns were shipped to Great Britain in the second shipment of 180 guns, some defer back to conjecture, opinion and circumstantial thoughts that a few of these 180 guns were Colt's. I could read this in today's New York Times and Washington Post

 

Just to set the record straight, Colt's NO 15025 was not part of the Swedish order. Registration documentation at the IRS beginning in 1939 to present indicates NO 15025 never left the USA. Regarding NO 2091 and NO 2291, there are no pictures I am aware of that shows these Colt's with the hand stamped letter "A" after the model nomenclature. Without this marking, there is no way to associate these early Colt's with the 1940 Swedish order. However, there is documentation that the Swedish government tested the Thompson submachine gun many years prior to World War II. See page 295 of The Ultimate Thompson Book. Gordon Herigstad reported NO 2091 as a Model of 1921 and NO 2291 as a 1928 NAVY A. Absent any nomenclature markings mirroring the added "A" marking as found on the 500 gun order in 1940, it is logical to assume NO 2091 and NO 2291 were in the Swedish military inventory long before World War II - and probably used in the documented Swedish military testing. The nomenclature on these two Colt's will certainly tell the story, if available.

 

I will have copies of Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story available at the Thompson Collection Association Show & Shoot this weekend. I encourge everyone to come by and take a look. All comments are always welcome.

[AlanDavid]

Arthur

Just to clarify, I am still of the belief that 748 of the initial order of 750 guns were made by Savage, but am open to new information coming along to disprove this, but I doubt this will happen, in view of what has already been uncovered by researchers around the world, which seems fairly compelling to me, but thats just my opinion.

There certainly were Colt guns that made it to the UK both before the War, being the imports of BSA and Hugh Pollard. During the war there was the quantity of refurbished guns that the UK got as part of a reconciliation of the French government account when the BPC took over all French contracts placed through the Anglo French Purchasing Commission, after the fall of France.

In addition to these are the Colt Thompson's collected through the American Committee for Defense of British Homes, along with the Thompson's used by the American Motorized Squadron Home Guard based in London - see photo. Tom covers both these in his book.

For anyone who is interested in the American Committee for Defense of British Homes and the American Motorized Squadron, I would recommend a new book out, "To the Last Man - The Home Guard in War & Popular Culture" by Malcolm Atkin, published this year by Pen & Sword books. One chapter has 26 pages on these two topics and explains in detail the ACFDBH from its beginnings to its wind up after the war. All facts are fully referenced, so this is the the first publication to set the record straight and debunk all the urban myths and fairy tales that have been written so far. I did have the opportunity to read the proof chapter last year and make comments and suggestions. It is good to finally set the record straight.Out of interest and getting back to the point one of the files in the National Archives in London that covers the ACFDBH, there are about a dozen of them, does have about 20 pages of guns and serial numbers. Unfortunately, a lot of the information is spartan such as Shotgun single barrel, S/N 123456, or Luger pistol, S/N 123456 and so on, which is pretty meaningless. I will try and relocate the file and see if there are any Thompson' serial numbers buried within it , that I missed last time. I will be there in November this year.

 

 

[Mk VII]

There is a telegram in AVIA 38/355 from Charles Suydam Cutting confirming 70 Thompsons sent by the American Committee have arrived safely.

 

http://www.fototime.com/518B0D5ED3F7BCD/medium800.jpg

Edited October 5, 2019 by Mk VII

[AlanDavid]

Excellent detail on the shipments of the two batches, giving the total of 110 Thompson guns.

 

Regards

AlanD