NAC Thompson Gun
Posted 30 December 2003 - 08:40 PM
Posted 30 December 2003 - 09:23 PM
Posted 30 December 2003 - 09:26 PM
Maybe Frank or someone more informed than myself has more....
Posted 30 December 2003 - 10:16 PM
|In reality, they are not Colt manufactured guns.|
Lets place them in the garbage! After all they are NOT the beloved colt guns.
|Cox, Herigstad, and Hill agree that these samples are equivalent to the current value of West Hurley guns.|
Which colt collectors frown upon most of all. Out comes the doll and the 1928 with a 50 rounder in it. Small target too.
MP43, dont let colt only collectors ruin your interest in the Thompson SMG. A NAC Thompson is FINE and DANDY.
Posted 30 December 2003 - 10:57 PM
Posted 30 December 2003 - 11:06 PM
are you wondering about Jerry's NAC??? i spoke with Jerry on that one. apparently Tracy Hill was stunned that Jerry was going to sell it to shoot. he thought it was historically significant enough that it should not be shot. Jerry told him he should buy it then, but he didn't. it sounds like a nice gun. apparently from the way the cuts were made in the receiver during manufacture you could tell it was a Colt receiver.
it sounds really nice. i thought about going for it, until he said 100% up front. i still have some money tied up in an Armalite 01, so no go for me.
there is no markings on the receiver if i remember correctly. no patents or anything. just the serial number.
hell if i could find one priced as a west hurley i would buy it in a heartbeat. but you won't find them like that. least i have not seen them....
Posted 30 December 2003 - 11:17 PM
Yes, a running Thompson is a running Thompson (Some West Hurleys had receiver barrel relationship issues), but if I were offered an NAC along side a WH, I would take the NAC first anyday, even at a higher price. No insult intended to WH owners. Same if I were offered a RPB MAC 10/11 next to an SWD or a Texas or New Jersey Arms MAC10/11. I'd grab the RPB and pay a higher price. BTW I've owned PS, RPB and SWD MAC's.
Posted 31 December 2003 - 12:22 AM
"I am making note of this gun because there is a growing number of people in the U.S. who seem to be miss-led about the facts and the history of these, (NAC) guns.
In my serial number book I recognize only the Colt production Thompsons, which are serial numbered from 41 to 15040.
I asked the Curator Mr. Swanson if he would like to know the real S/N of this Thompson, NAC-3, which would prove whether this was indeed a Colt or a Frankenstein. His answer was an enthusiastic yes.
I met with Mr. Swanson the following Monday morning at the Museum. He took me to the shop in the basement under the Curtis Earl room, where I set up my receiver vise.
I field stripped this Thompson No. NAC-3.
Careful examination of the parts revealed that:
The barrel was a reproduction or re-machined GI barrel with thicker fins, which did not really match the grip mount. The blade front sight clearly had, AOC stamped on the front of it.
he rear sight had what appeared to be newly and crudely installed rivets holding it on.
The Trigger Frame had all GI internals, nicely blued, with GI pistol grip. The serial number on the buttstock tang had clearly been welded over, then crudely ground down below the surface, leaving steps. Then restamped with hand punches, NAC-3. The whole frame was then polished and reblued. This probably had once been a GI trigger frame.
The removal of the barrel from the receiver, and the removal of the grip mount reviled, NO serial number. It had been blued in that area, with a very small "N" stamped near the back. There had never been a serial number there.
Further examination revealed a 1922 Patent date on the right side of the receiver. This date would indicate the end of the production run. Receivers numbered from 14500 to 15040 had 1922 Patent dates. This receiver very possibly was a Colt overrun. The small N would identify, Numrich Arms.
The NAC serial numbered Thompsons are not Colt guns. Colt did not produce them. These are clearly, "parts" guns. They were assembled by Numrich Arms Company from left over Russell McGuire WW-2 parts. These parts were sold by the pound in the early Fifties.It is my opinion based on my research that all the early NAC stamped receivers are either Colt over run receivers or after market new production. Some of the later NAC receivers were clearly GI receivers.
These hand assembled, NAC stamped, parts Thompsons, are an un-official variation which came long after the official Colt production run in 1921/22, and the official Savage/Auto-Ordnance production run of WW-2.
I feel the value of these unofficial parts Thompsons is now today, 2002, on a par with the current West Hurley Thompson shooter.
If you had assembled something in your garage, and then tried to pass it off as something that it was not, you would be guilty of fraud. It is a mistake, to put it nicely, to try to pass these home made Frankensteins off as original Colts."
Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:33 AM
Even though they were put together after the war and from a variety of parts, they are still an interesting piece of Auto-Ordnance history and deserve respect because of that.
I've heard they shoot as well as any AO or Savage gun also, but I've not fired one.
I have a friend looking at one and I recommended that he snap it up.
My own gun is an A.O.1928A1 that has had the finish sanded off (OUCH!!) and then been polished and blued (former owner wanted a colt I guess!!)
and that kinda hurts any collector value......but I got the gun cheap and bought it to shoot.
And shoot it I do.....alot!
Even the Dewats deserve some respect!!
Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:06 AM
Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:14 AM
Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:39 AM
|Further examination revealed a 1922 Patent date on the right side of the receiver. This date would indicate the end of the production run. Receivers numbered from 14500 to 15040 had 1922 Patent dates. This receiver very possibly was a Colt overrun.|
|The NAC serial numbered Thompsons are not Colt guns. Colt did not produce them.|
The registered part of a Thompson SMG is the receiver. If this guns recevier was made by colt, then wouldn't that, by default, make the Thompson a colt?
I sounds to me like the 15,000 colt Thompsons have some brothers and sisters they would like to keep in the closet and not let out. So in fact there ARE more than just 15,000 colt Thompsons out there, and the colt nuts/freaks would like to sweep them under the rug and dismiss them.
Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:41 AM
Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:53 AM
Of course there were more receivers made than 15,000. A Colt TSMG is one that was assembled at the Hartford plant using only Colt parts. A prefix NAC Thompson with a disgarded Colt TSMG frame without a serial number, using mongrul parts, is not a Colt factory gun. That would apply to any factory produced item.
Posted 31 December 2003 - 12:44 PM
Posted 31 December 2003 - 01:45 PM
Have a Good New Year.
Posted 31 December 2003 - 02:58 PM
If we consider that Cox, Hill, Herigstad, Helmer and others endorse Doug Richardson's pronouncement that, "No real Thompson gun has been made since 1944," then it becomes a moot point what Numrich, Trast, or Moon did with left over parts, or newly manufactured parts. Nobody has referred to these examples as junk or crap. As you say, there is always the PK way to ensure these aftermarket replica guns function flawlessly. That these guns work, and have value was never in doubt. Any "registered" Class III gun has become valuable, or exceeded in value, due to subsequent gun laws restricting manufacture, transfership, and use. But when one wants to assume any historical value to these NAC prefix guns, then I think it becomes an easy question of provenance. And as far as that goes, these post WWII guns are orphans.
Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:31 PM
Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:11 PM