Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

NAC Thompson Gun


  • Please log in to reply
106 replies to this topic

#1 MP43

MP43

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 38 posts
  • Location:Ohio
  • Interests:Military Sniper Rifles, Lugers, 50s Vintage Ford Ragtops. <br>new into the SMG clan. My SMG is a Reising 55 and now looking to buy a Thompson.

Posted 30 December 2003 - 08:40 PM

Help again guys. What exactly is an NAC gun and how does it fit into the scheme of things as reguards to desireability and value? Are there NAC 28s and 21S? Hank
  • 0

#2 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 December 2003 - 09:23 PM

NAC guns were parts guns with surplus Savage and AOC components. They have rejected Colt 1921/28 frames, mostly late serial numbers with the 1922 patent dates. They have been defaced to such a degree (no serial number inside the frame where the barrel screws in, or an "N" in its place) that their origins became speculative fodder. Some were cobbled together after McGuire sold the remaining Colt and Savage parts to Numrich. J. Curtis Earl, the chief proponent of these guns, managed to create a myth about their rarity and historical importance. In reality, they are not Colt manufactured guns. Cox, Herigstad, and Hill agree that these samples are equivalent to the current value of West Hurley guns.
  • 0

#3 john

john

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 552 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota

Posted 30 December 2003 - 09:26 PM

NAC guns have the prefix NAC before the serial number. They are genuine GI guns that weren't put together until later (I believe in the 60's afetr Auto-Ordnance was bought by Numrich Arms Corp (NAC). I believe they are C&R and are as collectible as anything else, but I don't think there were any Colts marked NAC.

Maybe Frank or someone more informed than myself has more....

john
  • 0

#4 John Jr

John Jr

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 1956 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mena, Arkansas, USA
  • Interests:Plenty

Posted 30 December 2003 - 10:16 PM

QUOTE
In reality, they are not Colt manufactured guns.


Lets place them in the garbage! After all they are NOT the beloved colt guns.

QUOTE
Cox, Herigstad, and Hill agree that these samples are equivalent to the current value of West Hurley guns.


Which colt collectors frown upon most of all. Out comes the doll and the 1928 with a 50 rounder in it. Small target too.



MP43, dont let colt only collectors ruin your interest in the Thompson SMG. A NAC Thompson is FINE and DANDY.

Jr
  • 0

#5 hawksnest

hawksnest

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 1031 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:central Ohio
  • Interests:Class III weapons

Posted 30 December 2003 - 10:57 PM

My Savage 28A1 has the "NAC" after both serial numbers, the one on the trigger group and the one on the frame. The serial numbers match. My gun also has British proof marks. While guns having a NAC prefix may be parts guns, those having a NAC suffix are believed to have been reimported by Numrich after the war. See page 24 of Cox's book. "Generally, the only way a collector can determine if an "N.A.C." gun is an original gun imported from Britain or a remake is by the presence of British proofs. If it is a British proofed, it probably was always a complete, original gun which was imported as such by Numrich, not a parts gun." Many thanks to Lionhart and the others,who answered my question about NAC in a previous thread.
  • 0

#6 The1930sRust

The1930sRust

    Respected Member and Board Donor

  • Moderator
  • 1939 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Confederate, Kentucky
  • Interests:Thompsons, obviously. Proud West Hurley 1928 and Savage M1 owner, cave explorer, and KSP trooper (retired). Also interested in 1920-1930 American history. I appreciate all Thompson models and their owners.

Posted 30 December 2003 - 10:59 PM

wink.gif

user posted image
  • 0

#7 craig101

craig101

    Regular Member

  • Regular Group
  • 127 posts

Posted 30 December 2003 - 11:06 PM

Hank,

are you wondering about Jerry's NAC??? i spoke with Jerry on that one. apparently Tracy Hill was stunned that Jerry was going to sell it to shoot. he thought it was historically significant enough that it should not be shot. Jerry told him he should buy it then, but he didn't. it sounds like a nice gun. apparently from the way the cuts were made in the receiver during manufacture you could tell it was a Colt receiver.

it sounds really nice. i thought about going for it, until he said 100% up front. i still have some money tied up in an Armalite 01, so no go for me.

there is no markings on the receiver if i remember correctly. no patents or anything. just the serial number.

hell if i could find one priced as a west hurley i would buy it in a heartbeat. but you won't find them like that. least i have not seen them....
  • 0

#8 Waffen Und Bier

Waffen Und Bier

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 645 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Like the name says "Guns and beer" (and really hot chicks who like guns and beer).

Posted 30 December 2003 - 11:17 PM

I've heard that some of those guns were possessed by NAC Numrich Arms Corp in their complete from, but ATF made them re stamp them NAC because of legal (real or imagined) issues. I've also heard they were GI parts on Colt or GI receivers assembled by NAC. Either way, they are worth more than West Hurley guns, in my opinion.
Yes, a running Thompson is a running Thompson (Some West Hurleys had receiver barrel relationship issues), but if I were offered an NAC along side a WH, I would take the NAC first anyday, even at a higher price. No insult intended to WH owners. Same if I were offered a RPB MAC 10/11 next to an SWD or a Texas or New Jersey Arms MAC10/11. I'd grab the RPB and pay a higher price. BTW I've owned PS, RPB and SWD MAC's.
  • 0

#9 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 December 2003 - 12:22 AM

Here is the poop on these "Frankenstein" NAC guns. The following is quoted from Gordon Herigstad:

"I am making note of this gun because there is a growing number of people in the U.S. who seem to be miss-led about the facts and the history of these, (NAC) guns.

In my serial number book I recognize only the Colt production Thompsons, which are serial numbered from 41 to 15040.

I asked the Curator Mr. Swanson if he would like to know the real S/N of this Thompson, NAC-3, which would prove whether this was indeed a Colt or a Frankenstein. His answer was an enthusiastic yes.

I met with Mr. Swanson the following Monday morning at the Museum. He took me to the shop in the basement under the Curtis Earl room, where I set up my receiver vise.

I field stripped this Thompson No. NAC-3.

Careful examination of the parts revealed that:

The barrel was a reproduction or re-machined GI barrel with thicker fins, which did not really match the grip mount. The blade front sight clearly had, AOC stamped on the front of it.
he rear sight had what appeared to be newly and crudely installed rivets holding it on.
The Trigger Frame had all GI internals, nicely blued, with GI pistol grip. The serial number on the buttstock tang had clearly been welded over, then crudely ground down below the surface, leaving steps. Then restamped with hand punches, NAC-3. The whole frame was then polished and reblued. This probably had once been a GI trigger frame.

The removal of the barrel from the receiver, and the removal of the grip mount reviled, NO serial number. It had been blued in that area, with a very small "N" stamped near the back. There had never been a serial number there.

Further examination revealed a 1922 Patent date on the right side of the receiver. This date would indicate the end of the production run. Receivers numbered from 14500 to 15040 had 1922 Patent dates. This receiver very possibly was a Colt overrun. The small N would identify, Numrich Arms.

The NAC serial numbered Thompsons are not Colt guns. Colt did not produce them. These are clearly, "parts" guns. They were assembled by Numrich Arms Company from left over Russell McGuire WW-2 parts. These parts were sold by the pound in the early Fifties.It is my opinion based on my research that all the early NAC stamped receivers are either Colt over run receivers or after market new production. Some of the later NAC receivers were clearly GI receivers.

These hand assembled, NAC stamped, parts Thompsons, are an un-official variation which came long after the official Colt production run in 1921/22, and the official Savage/Auto-Ordnance production run of WW-2.


I feel the value of these unofficial parts Thompsons is now today, 2002, on a par with the current West Hurley Thompson shooter
.

If you had assembled something in your garage, and then tried to pass it off as something that it was not, you would be guilty of fraud. It is a mistake, to put it nicely, to try to pass these home made Frankensteins off as original Colts."

Gordon Herigstad

  • 0

#10 john

john

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 552 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota

Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:33 AM

Just for the record here, I never said anything about NAC guns being junk. If I found a nice one at a fair price I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.
Even though they were put together after the war and from a variety of parts, they are still an interesting piece of Auto-Ordnance history and deserve respect because of that.
I've heard they shoot as well as any AO or Savage gun also, but I've not fired one.
I have a friend looking at one and I recommended that he snap it up.

My own gun is an A.O.1928A1 that has had the finish sanded off (OUCH!!) and then been polished and blued (former owner wanted a colt I guess!!)
and that kinda hurts any collector value......but I got the gun cheap and bought it to shoot.
And shoot it I do.....alot!

Even the Dewats deserve some respect!!

john
  • 0

#11 hawksnest

hawksnest

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 1031 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:central Ohio
  • Interests:Class III weapons

Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:06 AM

The gun Gordon refers to did not have a Savage "S" nor the Auto Ordnance "AOC" prefix to the serial number.
  • 0

#12 21 smoker

21 smoker

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1333 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West coast ,FL
  • Interests:collecting nfa, old cars, huntin` n fishin`, reloading ammo

    NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR
    MVPA RESTORATION MEMBER
    MARINE CORP LEAGUE PISTOL TEAM MEMBER

Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:14 AM

MP43,... I would love to own NAC thompson,I think they represent an important part of our history(collecting,shooting,etc.).Every one that I`ve handled looked and shot great, they just have their own unique beginning.To the purist,they are not Colts... but they are still Thompsons. Buy it if can, and enjoy it for what it is...full auto submachine gun!! KEEPEM`SMOKIN`,out. wink.gif p.s. for the record I own a 21ac and a wh28..(PK..make it run,...make it run...make it run) sorry, that`s my montra.
  • 0

#13 John Jr

John Jr

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 1956 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mena, Arkansas, USA
  • Interests:Plenty

Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:39 AM

QUOTE
Further examination revealed a 1922 Patent date on the right side of the receiver. This date would indicate the end of the production run. Receivers numbered from 14500 to 15040 had 1922 Patent dates. This receiver very possibly was a Colt overrun.


QUOTE
The NAC serial numbered Thompsons are not Colt guns. Colt did not produce them.


The registered part of a Thompson SMG is the receiver. If this guns recevier was made by colt, then wouldn't that, by default, make the Thompson a colt?

I sounds to me like the 15,000 colt Thompsons have some brothers and sisters they would like to keep in the closet and not let out. So in fact there ARE more than just 15,000 colt Thompsons out there, and the colt nuts/freaks would like to sweep them under the rug and dismiss them.

Interesting.

Jr

  • 0

#14 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:41 AM

The N.A.C. (Numrich Arms Company of West Hurley New York) guns I and Herigstad are referring to are indeed the prefix NAC guns such as NAC-1 through NAC-15, as well as a few other numbers. The suffix NAC Savage guns (like S-71189NAC, which Earl described as a "Commercial" Savage, and of course the high serial number says otherwise) are of course a different matter. Perhaps I should have made that clear from the outset....Sorry.
  • 0

#15 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 December 2003 - 11:53 AM

John Jr,
Of course there were more receivers made than 15,000. A Colt TSMG is one that was assembled at the Hartford plant using only Colt parts. A prefix NAC Thompson with a disgarded Colt TSMG frame without a serial number, using mongrul parts, is not a Colt factory gun. That would apply to any factory produced item.

  • 0

#16 96lt1ss

96lt1ss

    Regular Member

  • Regular Group
  • 120 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Home of the St Valentines Day Masacre

Posted 31 December 2003 - 12:44 PM

Chris, I am afraid to ask but what's with the doll ?
  • 0

#17 Chip

Chip

    Long Time Member

  • Board Donor
  • 63 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 December 2003 - 01:45 PM

Is there a serial number database for the Numrich built serial numbers? PhilOhio's historical footnote is interesting. I've noticed from the several photos of West Hurley guns I've seen posted over the years, that there seems to be a wide range of West Hurley guns around. They all seem to just look different.

Have a Good New Year.

Chip
  • 0

#18 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 December 2003 - 02:58 PM

Phil,
If we consider that Cox, Hill, Herigstad, Helmer and others endorse Doug Richardson's pronouncement that, "No real Thompson gun has been made since 1944," then it becomes a moot point what Numrich, Trast, or Moon did with left over parts, or newly manufactured parts. Nobody has referred to these examples as junk or crap. As you say, there is always the PK way to ensure these aftermarket replica guns function flawlessly. That these guns work, and have value was never in doubt. Any "registered" Class III gun has become valuable, or exceeded in value, due to subsequent gun laws restricting manufacture, transfership, and use. But when one wants to assume any historical value to these NAC prefix guns, then I think it becomes an easy question of provenance. And as far as that goes, these post WWII guns are orphans.

  • 0

#19 TSMGguy

TSMGguy

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2201 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West of the Pecos, Texas
  • Interests:Motorcycles, old airplanes, and guns.

Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:31 PM

I'd stack my NAC suffixed M1928A1 "orphan" up against any WWII gun out there! The serials match (original Savage applied); it has all of the correct parts, down the the buttstock with no crossbolt and "bright" bolt, and has no Colt, early Savage or postwar internals. It is absolutely reliable and and is in 99% or better condition with a perfect bore and no wear anywhere. I'm told that this is some kind of post-war parts lash-up, but if it is, someone went to an astonishing amount of trouble to get everything just right, down to the smallest detail.
  • 0

#20 The1930sRust

The1930sRust

    Respected Member and Board Donor

  • Moderator
  • 1939 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Confederate, Kentucky
  • Interests:Thompsons, obviously. Proud West Hurley 1928 and Savage M1 owner, cave explorer, and KSP trooper (retired). Also interested in 1920-1930 American history. I appreciate all Thompson models and their owners.

Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:11 PM

And there you have it! It's beautiful, it shoots, and the Thomspon is yours! Congratulations on owning such a fine Tommy Gun. Got any images of it? Post 'em!
  • 0