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NAC Thompson Gun


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#41 mp40

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 09:00 PM

Arthur, I started this disscussion? Hmmm? I had to go back after reading your post, and see if I had indeed started it...nope not me...MP43 did...Hey john, heres another fake: (a MGC 1921)

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#42 private_joker

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 09:18 PM

I dont know about all of you but the fact is I will prob never own a original 1921 colt thompson.

I do not have 30,000 laying around......

Right now im looking at West Hurleys becuase it is all that I can afford


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#43 Sig

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 09:23 PM

Chris
I got a good laugh when Arthur said he owns a WH as well!

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#44 The1930sRust

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 09:31 PM

Realistically, all Thompsons are equal to me. I only bought a Westy because, on my state salary, it is all I could afford. Blindfolded, shooting a Colt and a Westy (some bizarre karma aside), there is no practical difference (excepting that, sometimes, the latter just don't work too well at first:)
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#45 mp40

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 09:44 PM

As for what makes a "real" Thompson, let's look at what the originator of this wonderful firearm intended..General John T Thompson..A small hand held machinegun, a "submachinegun" Sure, Colt produced the first Thompsons, But they merely machined the parts that where specified and designed by the team that John Thompson assembled,but the fact is...Any Full Auto that is machined faithfully from the original blue prints(1921/28/M1/M1A1) is and should be forever considered a Thompson regardless of the manufacturer! What would happen if Colt industrys suddenly announced that they would produce new Thompsons for law-enforcement? Would any of the Thompson experts say that a newly made Colt Thompson wasn't a true Thompson? Or?
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#46 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 09:49 PM

MP40,
Sorry, I mixed up my Schmeissers with my Sturmgewehrs. Just to address your concept that something is what it is as long as it follows the blueprint faithfully, no matter who makes it, is the definition of a replica. Also Ford is making a street version of their 1964 Le Mans GT40. Even though Ford made the original, the current production car is not a real GT40. There are things once made in their own time that can be reproduced today, but not made original. That is the beauty of a bygone era.

Chris,
That's cool. Thank you for adding the comments to the FAQ board. I won't belabor the point anymore.

John Jr,
Are you related to John Zogby? Just wondered considering your affinity for polls.

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#47 PATHFINDER

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 10:05 PM

As a historian I find it hard to take something linear like the history of a firearm and just edit out the parts we don't like. 'Only the Colt made guns are real Thompsons' "No real thompson was made post 1944'. History does not stop and start as we like it. This would be like ignoring the history of the Roman empire after the capital was moved to Constantinople because the Roman helmets were no longer 'cool'. When you are standing down range from a post '44 gun it will be just as 'real' as one made at any other time. I remeber when M1s wer poo pooed by purist collectors as not being 'real' Thompsons. Now they are highly saught after. As for the collectability of the weapons that have been reworked, had pieces removed that were relative to indicating to their time of manufacture and altering a guns configurations to look like another model make me shake my head. According to the NRA grading standard most of these are worthless as collectors items. Refinishing > no matter how good< is still an alteration and detracts from the value as it is no longer ORIGINAL!! Leave them be. I have a StG-44 with about 70% of it's finish left and I would never DREAM of having it refinished. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Imagine a GI bringing in his M1 into an armorer on June 5th are refusing to invade Europe until someone changed his mag relaease to a 'Savage' marked piece!! If you have WH piece fail replace it. But why hack a gun assuming there will be a failure? These guns will be collectable one day when we are long gone and the ones worth the least will be the ones 'modified' from standard. The Thompson has a long rich history that started while the initial production run in 1921 and has yet to end. The NAC, WH, Colt, Savage etc (full and semis) are ALL Thompsons alike and all should be trasured for thier many diferences and the snobery about who owns what, when was it made and looking down on guns because of some misconcieved notion of history is detrimental to the hobby. One post said it best "We are all NFA here.." get over who made what and just enjoy the fact thet we can all own these great things and use them here in the Land of the Big PX. End the serial number snobery. Thank you for listening and have a pleasent tomorow. (FYI: I did not mention the Kahr Arms variant because I am a snob and do not consider them real Thompsons!)
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#48 mp40

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 10:06 PM

WELL!!! drum roll!!! Chris, the A/F doll picture please!!! Arthur, you didn't address the new made Colt question....The original producer=Well Ok, I guess you did, But arthur, Ford didn't build the original GT-40! it was mostly made in Britain (British chassis/body, German transaxle Ford 225 dual overhead cam engine (for the first cars) etc.) The later GT-40's where made by Kar Kraft with 427's But, even still, they didn't produce them, they are still true GT-40's So you evidently are just refering to the historical era that they where produced, than anything else. Now, when you put together a "kit car" GT-40, it might be considered a replica to some but to almost every one that sees the car on the street, thinks it is a "real GT40" The Thompson is and (was at least for us civilians) being made as close to the original as economically possible at the time, and it still was faithfull to what John Thompson intended..
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#49 Motorcar

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:06 PM

Whew! After reading that I'm going to need a break for a couple of days! ....somewhere right now someone is arguing online that "It's not a REAL Mustang unless it's a '64 and a half!"
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#50 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:16 PM

Motorcar,
Not only that, but a Shelby Cobra and Mustang are not Ford either
.
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#51 MP43

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:22 PM

Looks like I got everybody riled up again with my ignorance. Jerry's NAC gun sold a couple days ago and my Thompson ignorance is on the mend. I did not buy the gun. I have my eye firmly fixed on a 1928A1 Savage with early features. It's an early war baby. It is my opinion that guns that went to war or could have gone to war early got chewed up and are just a bit more scarce than guns issued later on. At least that's my theory for German guns. I don't know if that theory holds any water for Thompsons. As a Luger collector I can appreciate the fine quality of older guns but I really like military weapons. Commercial guns hold very little interest for me so 21s and West Hurleys are out. At this stage of my enlightment I still can't fall completely in love with the gun. It is a weapon from the days when ships were wood and men were steel. I sure wouldn't want to carry one very far. The gun seems a bit overbuilt and the design seems a bit dated. I slung one over the back of my chicken plate but I dreaded having to carry it far if I ever went down. The gun must have been made for giants. I'm only 5'6" and the Thompson has a length of pull of over 17". That's long, even for a shotgun. Why so long? I know, it is seldom shot from the shoulder. Anyway I have decided I only "need" one. After I get it I may be forced to reconsider my "needs." Thanks again for all the great knowledge. Hank PS Why does Arthur write in such BOLD flaming colors?
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#52 mp40

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:30 PM

Arthur, The Mustang isn't made by Ford? Hmmmm...The original Shelby mustang is all ford production based too..very few aftermarket parts..But, say isn't this about Thompsons?
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#53 Waffen Und Bier

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 11:59 PM

Speakin' of WWII L4's.....here's my father in law's 1942 L4. It even had the GI style manufacturer's plate designating it an L4. It was fun to fly. He sold it a few years ago. sad.gif My one chance to ever own a warbird....gone. As bad as my dad trading a '67 Chevelle Malibu for a frickin' Pinto station wagon one year before I could drive (that's definitely one of those "What the f#@* were you thinking?!?!" moments) mad.gif blink.gif

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#54 The1930sRust

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 06:30 AM

QUOTE
Looks like I got everybody riled up again with my ignorance.       


Hank, are you kidding? This was a great thread.

QUOTE
PS Why does Arthur write in such BOLD flaming colors?


Arthur is very soft spoken. Sometimes he needs a little help to stand out in this crowded room we have here tongue.gif
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#55 The1930sRust

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 06:52 AM

QUOTE (PATHFINDER @ Jan 1 2004, 10:05 PM)
As a historian I find it hard to take something linear like the history of a firearm and just edit out the parts we don't like....History does not stop and start as we like it....I remeber when M1s wer poo pooed by purist collectors as not being 'real' Thompsons. Now they are highly saught after.... The Thompson has a long rich history that started while the initial production run in 1921 and has yet to end. The NAC, WH, Colt, Savage etc (full and semis) are ALL Thompsons alike and all should be trasured for thier many diferences and the snobery about who owns what, when was it made and looking down on guns because of some misconcieved notion of history is detrimental to the hobby.

Pathfinder. Wow. Very well said; thanks. This will be a topic to keep in the Book. Heck, I am tempted to pin it! As moderator however, I must reprimand you for using the phrase "poo pooed" on the board... wink.gif
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#56 full auto 45

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 07:03 AM

If we're back to the only true Thompson is the first ones made, then the Colt 1921 is a copy. After all you all forget there was a model 1919 made wasn't there? yes. Not many. Only 5 to known to exist in public hands and Tracie Hill has 4 of them and a guy in Florida has the other. Others are in museums. huh.gif So that would make the Colt's, AOC, Savage, Westy, and anybody inbetween a copy wouldn't it?
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#57 PATHFINDER

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 08:20 AM

QUOTE (The1930sRust @ Jan 2 2004, 06:52 AM)
As moderator however, I must reprimand you for using the phrase "poo pooed" on the board... wink.gif

Sorry for using such strong language, but it is from the French for 'you can't seriously expect me to buy this crap'. so I thought I could slip it through
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#58 TSMGguy

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:03 AM

And along the same lines. . . 1943 Piper L-4a Grasshopper.

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#59 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 11:12 AM

Mike,

The idea that Colt 21's are copies of the 1919 does not track. Every weapon had a prototype. Their were 24 protoypes of the 1919 by 1918. Eventually there were 35-plus hand fabricated examples. But even so, the 1919 was not the final design elected by John T to be mass produced. Since the same engineers who developed the 1919 for Auto-Ord were the same that finalized the 1921 design, the 1921 could not be considered a replica/copy, but merely the final extension product as constructed by the original principals involved.


QUOTE
This would be like ignoring the history of the Roman empire after the capital was moved to Constantinople because the Roman helmets were no longer 'cool'. When you are standing down range from a post '44 gun it will be just as 'real' as one made at any other time.


Pathfinder,

Historical relevance always has a begining and an end. The Roman Empire is of historical interest regardless of what the capital was. But even that dominant civilization did come to an end. Just because college fraternities revitalized toga parties in 1978, after watching "Animal House", does not mean that there was an historical resurgence of Roman civilization. What makes the Colt 1921/28 historically relevant is that it was the cutting edge of technology for its time. When West Hurley and Kahr came into the picture, it was now the nuclear/space age. What could be historically relevant about companies making copies of an obsolete weapon, whether that weapon is lethal to living critters or not? This could only be an homage perhaps to an earlier period. That is not history; it is novelty.

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#60 John Jr

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 12:11 PM

QUOTE
The idea that Colt 21's are copies of the 1919 does not track.


Wrong again Arthur. I will explain why later, busy right now.

Jr

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