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Braintease...savage Commercial 1928 Lend/lease?


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#1 craig101

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 07:07 PM

Ok here's one for you.

I just looked at/handled a Savage Model of 1928. not "US model of 1928A1", but it was marked on the Receiver "Model of 1928". the serial number is S-25688, which looks like it is an early gun. now i also saw on the receiver the circle GEG stamp, although the first G in GEG was VERY faint, but i saw the EG in a circle, AND i also saw the broad arrow/crows foot stamp on the receiver also. so that should tell me it was at one time, in Britain. this gun has the New York address on the side of the receiver. i didn't see any of the internals and if i had, i wouldn't know what the hell i am looking at, to see if they are Colt or not. and i did not see if it has a flat sided ejector. i would need to see pics of one, to check on this one.

could this be a Savage Commercial which was sent over as a Lend/Lease?? sadly i didn't take pics, the light in his house sucked.

this gun is a rewat, so the barrel is different and the frame's serial number is S-481684, he said it was arsenal refinished in Britain. he thinks they refinished the receiver, its NOT parkerized, rather a blackish color, could be a DARK blue, but it would be a VERY dark blue, BUT Hill says in his book, when the Military received thompson's they reparked them??? . it has a vertical pistol grip, but that could have been installed later on. it has a lyman site on it, it is missing the small parts of the site, but he says he has them and a spare lyman site as well.

what the hell is this??

he has a Bridgeport 50 round drum, it has a small dent on the side of it, and some light surface rust/patina. i can rub most of the rust off with my finger. he was going to take the dent out, but he says it shoots great, so he did not mess with it.

what type of price range for this gun and drum?

any help??


thanks

Craig
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#2 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 07:14 PM

For $11K, go out and shoot a drum with the guy and if it empties, give him the money on the spot!
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#3 craig101

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 08:02 PM

brilliant advice Arthur! biggrin.gif thats what i was thinking on doing. LOLOL

can anyone tell me what this is? is it indeed a savage commercial or what?

thanks
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#4 John Jr

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 08:49 PM

If you can get it for 11K you will be making at least 4K on the gun. I know guys looking who will pay TOP dollar for that gun, and 11K is not TOP dollar. If the price is 11K buy it even if it wont run. No its not a Savage Commerical gun.

Jr



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#5 TSMG28

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:03 AM

Craig,

I agree with John Jr. This is not a commercial Savage. The receiver on the gun you are looking at is an early Savage Model 1928, probably manufactured in November of 1940, while the trigger frame was probably made around April of 1942. The British proofs would be in line with the age of the receiver. Most of the early Savage guns were purchased by the Brits.

You didn't describe the safety and selector (rocker pivot), so I don't know if they are the same early parts as the receiver (both should be knurled) or the later type (not knurled). Chances are the safety and rocker pivot are from the same period as the trigger frame. Mismatched trigger frames are not uncommon, but it does reduce the collectibility slightly (to a purist).

The drum is worth probably $800-900 in the condition you describe, and I agree with the current owner. Don't worry about a small dent if it does not affect the function. Clean it up and enjoy it.

The prices quoted by others in this thread are good. The gun would be an excellent purchase.

Roger
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#6 craig101

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:16 AM

after looking at tracie hill's "thompson: the american legend", the saftey and selector looks similar to the one showed in page 70 lower left corner. i know that picture is of the Colt 21, but it looks like that and NOT like the one pictured on page 193. i know the one on page 193 is from a M1, but the selector on my savage that i looked at didn't look like that. other than that, i am so uneducated on thompsons, it took me a couple of minutes of casually fondling the gun, before i "knew" (with certainty) rolleyes.gif how to take the stock off and put the drum in and out. i have never held a 1928 before, and only shot an M1 once.

i am going to call him tomorrow and ask to shoot it and have him take it apart for me, to see what kind of parts are inside it. to see if they are all Savage or not.

from the serial number, this appears to be an early savage, could i expect to see any Colt parts in it??

whoever dewatted this, had fused the barrel on both ends with Stellite, and from his description, is one hard mother!

thanks
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#7 Walter63a

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:27 AM

craig101, it sounds like one nice gun! biggrin.gif smile.gif Try to get some good photos to post here! I'm sure everyone will chime in with an opinion. As far as the internals go, you could have all sorts of mix-n-match parts, or they could be all Savage, Colt, who knows! smile.gif rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif Regards, Walter
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#8 craig101

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 01:11 AM

i was gonna take pics, but like i said, the lighting sucked! i'll try and take pics, the next time i see it.

as i was handling the gun, the shoulder stock seemed to have some play in it. is this because it is removeable? it didn't bother me too much.


he also has some type of canvas carrying case. holds the gun, some mags, and the drum. he's asking $300, says the gun came from Britain in it. i'll take a pic of that as well.
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#9 Walter63a

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 02:05 AM

tongue.gif craig101, whatever you do, try to get some pics in good light (outdoors, if necessary). Wow, $300, it sounds like it might be the steal of the century! rolleyes.gif ohmy.gif smile.gif blink.gif Regards, Walter
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#10 TSMG28

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 03:05 AM

Craig,

The safety and rocker pivot are the correct ones for the 1928 if they are like those pictured on page 70 of Tracie's book. The ones in that picture are knurled. Hopefully, the ones on the gun you are looking at are also knurled. Knurled would be correct for an early Savage gun and are more scarce. However, as long as you get the milled type safety and rocker pivot rather than the M1 style shown on page 193, you are good to go.

Since you have access to Tracie's book, look up the canvas type cases on pages 348-350. Chances are the one your friend is selling is one of the ones on page 350. If so, $300 is not an unreasonable price, but not a steal. If it is like the ones on page 349, grab it and don't look back. Those are much more valuable and rare.

Given the serial number, it is unlikely that you will find Colt internals, though that is not impossible. I expect you will see most if not all internals are Savage (S) or Stevens (square S), though Savage used other subcontractors for some parts. Stevens was owned by Savage.

Yes, the tolerances on the removeable stock can create a little looseness of the buttstock. This is not uncommon. My Savage 1928A1 is matching, has British proofs on the receiver and actuator, and the buttstock is a little loose. There are several methods that can be used to tighten this up without modifying the gun or stock. There is a posting in the old Thompson board, but I can't seem to find the link to it. I will Email you a copy I had saved. The looseness is not a problem.

By all means try to get some pictures. Feel free to ask as many questions as you wish. The members of this board have a wealth of information. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask. Also, you may want to track down a copy of Frank Iannamico's book "American Thunder". It covers the WWII Thompsons thoroughly and is a must-have for someone collecting the WWII versions. It covers all of the markings, manufacturers and tons of additional information. I know Frank himself is sold out, but you should be able to find it from other sources on the 'net.

Roger
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#11 Walter63a

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 04:02 AM

craig101, maybe I misunderstood. Did you mean that he was asking $300 for the canvas alone? If so, then it is not a steal. I thought you were refering to the whole package. Regards, Walter
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#12 Balder

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 06:23 AM

Craig,

Your gun is definitely not a Lend-Lease gun, as the Lend-Lease Act wasn't passed until March 1941. It's a commercial Savage made 1928, sold to the Brits in 1940. It was probably delivered in April 1940.

Regards,

Balder
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#13 Balder

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:24 AM

PS Craig:

I guess that some will react to my calling this gun a commercial Savage. My reasons for doing so is the fact that this particular batch of Savage produced M1928's was made for the Brits and sold commercially to them, even though it was, of course, intended for military use. It was later on given the designation M1928A1. This first series of Savage guns (S-15041 to approx. 26000) was shipped to the UK in April 1940. Your gun S-25688 may have been in this batch; S-25317 was in that first series, S-26290 has the later marking. So, if your gun has 12 patent DATES on the right side of the receiver it's in the first batch of Thompsons shipped to England, if it has 13 patent NUMBERS it's a later version.

Regards,

Balder
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#14 Balder

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 09:30 AM

PS 2

The GEG initials in a circle is Auto-Ordnance's acceptance stamp; George E. Goll whom I believe was their head gun inspector.

Balder

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#15 Balder

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 04:46 AM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Jan 4 2004, 02:10 AM)


No AOC employee certified military acceptance of AOC's own guns.


PhilOhio,

Since the gun in question in my eyes is civilian, the (US) military would not have inspected it at all. Whatever military inspection it went through would take place upon arrival in the UK. Furthermore, my sources state that Mr. Goll was indeed an employee of Auto-Ordnance, starting out as a chauffeur and later on becoming involved with design. He was the company's own civilian inspector for some time, some sources say from 1940-44. I can't find any indication of him being government employed and I have never seen the encircled GEG on any other weapon than the Thompson.

I suggest you check out these links:

http://www.nfatoys.c...web/history.htm

http://proofhouse.co...s_inspector.htm

Balder
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#16 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 11:49 AM

The initials JHB appear on about 85% of Colt TSMG's, but even though GeG was an employee of Auto-Ord, his initials only appears on the WWII Savage/AO Thompsons. I have never seen those initials on an M-1 carbine, or anything else. But he was Auto-Ord's "civilian" quality control inspector during military production period. At any rate, a true "commercial" Savage gun would not have a serial number higher than 25,000, or have any proofs, U.S., British, or any country. These type Savages are truly scarce in the U.S.
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#17 bug

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 12:24 PM

I have a 16,000 Savage that has George's proof and no others. It was not a military gun and it was never outside the US. It came out of a PD in the '70s through Cox/Michaels. I believe the PD was the initial buyer.
The early, post-Colt guns are interesting. I was under the impression that Savage started with SN S 1 and went on from there. Hill also speaks of a contract for Savage guns (50,000) with no S prefix. Perhaps they started at 15,041 so as not to be confused with Colt numbers. I thought Goll was associated with the Savage plant as an employee of AOC. Perhaps his proof is on some of their others mil output?
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#18 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 12:31 PM

Bug,
The only serial numbered Savage beginning with #1 I know of is the experimental S1 9mm Parabellum Savage SMG.

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#19 gijive

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 01:28 PM

PhilOhio,

The A.O. made guns don't have the GEG acceptance stamp, just the Savage made guns. It's in American Thunder somewhere. I'll try to locate the page number later for your reference.
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#20 Balder

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 02:00 PM

PhilOhio,

I have not "determined" that the gun in question was civilian. Please read my former messages in this thread for my reasons for calling it so and other pieces of relevant information. "Civilian" will depend on your point of view, mine being that it could be considered civilian because it was a non-US-military gun, made by Savage on a commercial contract from Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Goll was one of AOC's gun inspectors, I would assume that he was sent to the Savage plant with the task of making sure that the Savage guns were within standards and therefore put his acceptance mark on each gun - no matter whom the gun was intended for. I never said that he inspected or stamped the guns AOC made themselves; I never looked into AOC stamps. Mr. John H. Barett was another AOC inspector, whose encircled JHB can be found at least on the early Colt production of Thompsons.

Now, my M1928, # S-245XX has the GEG stamp on the receiver just behind the ejector. I tried to take a picture of it but it is very faint and my camera isn't too good on macro photography. I'll include it anyway. It also has the British "Broad Arrow" stamp on the receiver, to the right of the chamber. As mentioned in a different thread on this board, this gun was in the batch of the first 10,000 Tommyguns procured by the Brits early in 1940.

The reason why you in the USA can't find many Savage Thompsons under # 25000 is the fact that they were exported to Europe.

Bug:

Savage started their #range with S-15041, which is where Colt let off when they shut down their production in 1922. This first series of Savage Thompsons was actually made with machinery from Colt. Auto-Ordnance started fresh on a new SN range for their production.


Regards,

Balder

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