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#1 rhema7

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 03:16 AM

My wifes father is very ill and it is doubtfull he will recover and his wife wants to sell many of his guns one being a Thompson SMG. I do not know much about it other than seeing it from inside a case but I do know he served in Korea and was the police Chief in the small town he lives in now in Alabama. I once saw a picture of him and George Wallace and he had a Thompsons then but not known if it is the same one. I was once a collecter and shooter of small arm as a younger man but I got away from it due to not enough time to devote to it, So my collection went from some 75 (hunting rifes, shotguns, and pistols combined.) firearms to 4 My trusted Winchester 1200 Defender Security Shotgun (racking Winchester slide demands attention don't it?) My Colt 1911 45, My Colt Commander, and a custom 1911 style 38super. But back to the question I'm not sure of any paperwork on this particular Thompson of my father inlaw's. So I need somee heads up on legalities of tranfering ownership. I understand there are fees and BATF to pay regulation that are setup, and also to be fair to the current owner how much is a fair price in 90% condition (really site unseen or touched in my case) I'm not sure if parts are matched or not if that matters. I just need to know how to go about owning. The thompson in question is in Alabama I live in the Fine city Of Nashville, TN. (what about those TITANS!!). I apologize if I have posted to the wrong forum or terminology is wrong. Please tell me what I did wrong before you flame me.
TIA for any help
GOD BLESS ONE AND ALL

Preston Spencer
(I hang out most of the time on the TechTV message Boards where I vol moderate the help boards do drop by if you need help with your PC or something there is enough knowledge to solve all there)
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#2 M1 Thumb

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 03:24 AM

QUOTE (rhema7 @ Jan 7 2004, 03:16 AM)
My wifes father is very ill and it is doubtfull he will recover and his wife wants to sell many of his guns one being a Thompson SMG. I do not know much about it other than seeing it from inside a case but I do know he served in Korea and was the police Chief in the small town he lives in now in Alabama. I once saw a picture of him and George Wallace and he had a Thompsons then but not known if it is the same one. I was once a collecter and shooter of small arm as a younger man but I got away from it due to not enough time to devote to it, So my collection went from some 75 (hunting rifes, shotguns, and pistols combined.) firearms to 4 My trusted Winchester 1200 Defender Security Shotgun (racking Winchester slide demands attention don't it?) My Colt 1911 45, My Colt Commander, and a custom 1911 style 38super. But back to the question I'm not sure of any paperwork on this particular Thompson of my father inlaw's. So I need somee heads up on legalities of tranfering ownership. I understand there are fees and BATF to pay regulation that are setup, and also to be fair to the current owner how much is a fair price in 90% condition (really site unseen or touched in my case) I'm not sure if parts are matched or not if that matters. I just need to know how to go about owning. The thompson in question is in Alabama I live in the Fine city Of Nashville, TN. (what about those TITANS!!). I apologize if I have posted to the wrong forum or terminology is wrong. Please tell me what I did wrong before you flame me.
TIA for any help
GOD BLESS ONE AND ALL

Preston Spencer
(I hang out most of the time on the TechTV message Boards where I vol moderate the help boards do drop by if you need help with your PC or something there is enough knowledge to solve all there)

I have a house in Clarksville. cool.gif
Killer




I always thought that if a gun was never regist, lioke a hand me down, then it doessnt have to me,

]



My dad has 5 guns (2 9mm pistols, one saturdaynight shooter, and 2 double barrel shottys) NON of them are registered. All traded and vietnam bringhoimes.








ps.m Im sorry anout the type but I am under the clouds of 15mb of ambien(pill for insomnia)./..../



Again sorrye or he phycho typesing. smile.gif ph34r.gif
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#3 The1930sRust

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 06:25 AM

Preston:

Welcome to the board! If you have questions about the Thompson, you are in the correct forum. You will find many friendly people here. I am sorry to hear about your father in laws illness. As far as his Thompson goes, we will likely need some more information, such as whether it is full auto or semi automatic. Your main concern will be to determine if it is a registered NFA weapon, cataloged by the ATF as it were. There can be many legalities when dealing with a non registered machinegun, not the least of which is the ten year prison sentence attached to them. I am by no means an expert on these issues, and you will no doubt get better answers. It is also likely that there may be some sort of estate transfer avenue. Good luck!
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#4 full auto 45

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 07:00 AM

If it is a registred full auto gun you can do a form 5 tax free transfer as it is a relative. Or maybe your wife could have it put in her name. that will save you the $200 tax fee. If it isn't registered and he doesn't have paper work for it, then it doesn't exsist. If you have the picture of him and old George with the gun, post it on here we would like to see.
As far as a fair price for a TSMG, then we would need to know what it is, make model all that. But your probably in the range of $7000 - $15000, all depends on what and how it is. Post us a picture if possible.
What other guns does he have? You could email me a list at mrhsharkey@worldnet.att.net ,I may be interested in others.
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#5 Bill in VA

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 08:36 AM

Just to clear up a few bits of misinformation...a Form 5 cannot be used to transfer a gun to any relative. Form 5 transfers are tax-free applications to transfer and can only be used to transfer a registered dewat, to transfer an NFA device from a decedent to a lawful heir, or for a temporary transfer (like to a gunsmith for the purposes of repair.) Simply because dad has a machinegun and wants to give it to me doesn't allow me to transfer it on a Form 5.

I'm assuming Preston's father is still alive/not deceased since his orignal post says "he [Preston's father] lives now in Alabama" thus precluding the use of a Form 5 for transfer. Moreover, unless Preston has a C&R FFL, the gun will have to go from his father in Alabama to an FFL in Tennessee, and then a second transfer from the Tem=nnessee FFL to Preston.

For M1Thumb:
If the machinegun was never registered and is a "hand-me-down" it still has to be registered in the NFRTR. If it wasn't registered in the NFRTR before May 19, 1986 it cannot be registered as a transferrable machinegun, meaning that no one other than a bonafide law enforcement agency, a government agency, or an FFL/SOT with a police dept. "love letter" can possess it. As for your dad's "shottys" and "Saturday night shooters" unless they're NFA devices (short-barrelled rifles/shotguns, machineguns, suppressors ("silencers") , etc...) federal law does not require them to be registered. State laws (such as Kalifornia and New York), however, may require registration of any or all firearms regardless of NFA status.
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#6 rhema7

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 02:39 PM

Thanks for the info guys No I do not have access to the photo at this momment and with all the uproar there concerning estate it may have slipped away to a relative by now (it was at his mothers house next door). I liked the Photo because of all the bad press George got about during the civil rights movement yet he stood to pose with my wifes father and he is a black man ( A black police chief in Oxford, AL so BAMA was not all bad I was even accepted in the Prattville, AL. PD but had to move back to Nashville before I finshed the academy for family reasons, I,m a graphic artist now).

M1 Thumb,
I actually live in LaVergne Now we just purchased a house here I wanted to be outside the city but it only 10mins to downtown nashville but I am a born and bred Nashvillian.

I do not know if any of my Father inlaws other guns are worth anything say for sentimental value to my wife and her sister some were in pretty crudy shape but no beyond a good solvent dunk.

I welcome anymore input on this .

God Bless
Preston
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#7 rhema7

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 02:41 PM

I'll call this weekend about the photo.
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#8 Tman

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 05:36 PM

Preston,
If possible, get the serial number and email it to me. As an ATF agent, I can let his wife know, thru you, if it is in the registry and what she needs to do to get the gun transferred to you or any other family member. Has someone been appointed to be a Power of Attorney for him? If so, that person can execute the paperwork in his behalf. My email is gregory.alvarez@atf.gov
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#9 junglewalk

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 05:56 PM

Hey Tman, that is very nice of you to do the ser/number check for the family, as a atf person........That is the problem many times, when guns like this surface in these family situations. .....Family don't even know there is paper/registration involved, and when they are told, don't know where to start looking, & no one wants to call ATF to find out.....As our WWII vets are dying off, grandma is finding herself with an NFA weapon, & don't know what to do.......You're a nice guy, and no jack boots I see......Bless you.......Do you come to Knob Creek for the mg shoots?...I would like to meet you ......jw
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#10 full auto 45

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 06:06 PM

Bill in Va, wouldn't the daughter,Preston's wife, be considered a rightful heir in the case. It could for sake of saving $200, be put into her name if she is meeting all the requirments.
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#11 Tman

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 06:09 PM

No problem. I pride myself on helping others keep history out of the scrap bin. I have personally saved more than an handfull of unregistered machineguns. Most are now on display at the Admiral Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, TX.

Haven't made it to the Creek yet. Maybe someday. Just assure me that they won't announce my presence over the PA system. unsure.gif
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#12 Sig

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 06:21 PM

Preston
I lived in Hendersonville for six years and acquired a nice (my definition) NFA collection. Do NOT ask me where I live right now please!
You simply need a Tennessee dealer who will handle the paperwork for you, no way around this so just get used to the idea.
The dealer will create the paperwork to transer the firearm to him (the dealer) from Alabama. Once this clears then another round of paperwork to get the item transferred to you, this will take MUCH longer and involves getting fingerprinted, and a CLEO signoff. Now you and eventually I (when I move back to TN as I expect to) are lucky as Tennessee is a MANADATORY CLEO signoff state. CLEO is Chief Law Enforcement Officer and a signature on the transfer forms to you by the CLEO is required by the BATF. Thankfully the state of TN passed a law saying in short barring any legal reason to deny the CLEO must sign, which unfortantely in many (not all) parts of the rest of the country is not the case as many CLEO's refuse to sign.
Now if you want the name of a dealer or two or three I can help you, email me. I have dealt exclusively with one and know two more very close to you.
Tman's offer to check the serial numbers is great. If you decide not to accept the offer it does not matter because when the 1st paperwork is filled out to transfer to a TN CLASS III dealer if the item is NOT registered the paperwork will be denied. At that point you have a nice parts kit or museum donation if that is the case.
The dealer will walk you through getting the item transferred in the BEST legal way possible Form 5 or Form 4.
Sig
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#13 Bill in VA

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 09:38 PM

fullauto,
A rightful heir can be just about anybody. In the absence of an heir named in the decedent's will, generally speaking, the closest surviving relative (usually the wife, and then to son/daughter, mother/father, brother/sister, etc...) is considered the lawful heir of an estate. Many times though, if there are "competing" heirs (ex, brother and sister) to an intestate decedent (ie, deceased left no will) the executor/executrix can decide. Many times with intestate decendents the probate courts willdesignate someone to act as the [court appointed] executor.
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#14 rhema7

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 02:58 AM

Tman,
Thanks for your offer and I gracefully accept I have logged your email addy and I will be in contact ASAP. I will need to call his wife to get the serial (I'm in no mood for the drive). The last I heard was she was thinking of letting her brother carry it to a dealer so I called her to put the an end to it but she is old and may do it anyway, She is 20yrs younger that my father inlaw and not to swift in some areas but she is loyal she takes care of him and his mother both are bed ridden. If donation to a Museum is the only option I will take that option it is better than sitting on a potential financial time bomb. The way young people are today I would hate for one of her sons to get hold of it and go to prision thinking it is just an ordinary house gun. It maybe monday before I can get the serial # to you. I may need to explain to her where to look for it so please tell me where it is located on the weapon.

All of you Guys are great
May the Lord Bless and keep you
Preston



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#15 TSMG28

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 02:01 PM

Preston,

PhilOhio has a good point about acquiring a Curio and Relic (C&R) license. There is an extremely high probability that this is a C&R gun. If a double transfer is required, you may have to pony up $200 twice plus whatever the Class III dealer in TN wants ($100 is typical for the Class III's that I know).

As PhilOhio said, a C&R FFL will only cost you $30 for three years, AND having it also enables you to transport any NFA firearm you own across state borders without having to file paperwork with the ATF. This last point may be one of the C&R's nicest features (from an NFA point of view). The C&R FFL also allows you to acquire any C&R firearm through the mail directly to your home if you ever want to expand your non-NFA collection. Now you are only out the $30 plus $200 for the transfer tax.

I suggest you let Greg guide you through this process. Good luck! I hope you are able to acquire this Tommy.

Roger
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#16 Tman

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 11:37 PM

Preston,
The serial number will be located on the left side of the firearm. You will see the model designation there also. It might say 'Model of 1921' or 'US Model of 1928A1'. The s/n will be under this. Early guns will be prefaced by 'No.' before the actual number. Military guns will have an 'S' or 'AO' before the number. Best thing to do is get every available letter, number and symbol from both sides of the receiver. That way I can narrow down the search. It will also help the guys here that are compiling serial numbers for research purposes.

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