10 replies to this topic

[Balder]

I'm not getting involved in whatever you guys have going here, as a Norwegian I just wanted to point out that I never knew that "hardrede" in Norwegian meant "hard cousel" as claimed by hardrede. It is probably an Anglification of the Norwegian nickname hardråde, which means somebody who rules with a very hard hand. The first time it is encountered is when the sagas talk about the Norwegian king Harald Hardråde (1015-1066), who in many ways was a rather rough ruler; especially in his English territory. He lost the territory as well as his life in the battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066.

Some linguistic historians have theorized that "hardråde" could also mean "he who is hard to give advice to"; also a fitting description of said king Harald.

"Truth sayer"? That's also a new one to me.

Just for your information.

Regards,

Balder

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Just like a Norwegian Kipper is different from a Bismarck Herring?

[LIONHART]

FWIW, I find all of this entertaining!

[Balder]

QUOTE (hardrede @ Jan 21 2004, 03:16 PM)

Balder, the "hardrede" as hard counsel or truth sayer is attributed to Poul Anderson and his series of books, "The Last Viking" about Harald Hardrede. He specifically qoutes Saxo Grammiticus, and Snorri Sturlason as his source for the meaning. The following is a direct qoute from the Saga of Harald Hardede by Snorri Sturlason ca. 1100. I am a bit surprised that you would give "evidence," without qoutation, and express opinion, rather than give fact. ..... One other point, Harald never really "ruled" English soil, he fought and died there in a relatively short time. "King Harald was a great man, who ruled his kingdom well in home- concerns. ....."

Gentlemen,

I have to admit that I sometimes enjoy the rather severe derailings from the topic of Thompsons that we frequently experience on this board

Hardrede,

My Norwegian edition of Snorre Sturlason's saga seems to be somewhat different from yours, which I assume is written in English. This is my translation of the first section of chapter 36 of "Harald Hårdrådes saga", please compare it to yours:

"King Harald was a powerful man and a strong domestic ruler."... (Kong Harald var en mektig mann og en sterk styrer innenlands.)...

Already here we see the contours of a heavy-handed statesman, a reputation that would increase as he went on his journeys. He conquered several cities in Jorsalaland (today's Israel), did some pillaging in north Africa, returned to Miklagard (today's Istanbul) and on to Greece where he even found the time to check up on and propose to a Greek princess (he was turned down). The Danes hated him and his companion Magnus den Gode, who for a certain period of time ruled Norway alongside Harald. They had done a lot of pillaging in Denmark and eventually they conquered the Danish king Svein Tjugeskjegg [actually, Svein fled from them without a fight (Snorre, chapter 28)]. In doing so Harald and Magnus gained Denmark and a chunk of England, some of which was later to be known as Danelagen (Danelaw).

However, Harald was not able to retain Denmark after Magnus' death - Magnus had wanted to hand Denmark back to Svein. Harald had to go back to Norway to avoid his kingdom there breaking up. So Svein once again found himself king of Denmark.

When Harald was killed at Stamford, fighting the English king Harald Godwinsson, he had been out of England for some time. This time he entered the then Norwegian isles of the Inner Hebrides and made his way south through Scotland. So, at the time he was killed he had not stayed there for long, but I do believe that his former merits speak for themselves.

I am not familiar with neither Mr. Poul Anderson nor his series of books. Are they fictional?

My sources:

Snorre Sturlason "Kongesagaer"
Karsten Alnæs "Historien om Norge"
Knut Helle "Norge blir en stat" and "Under kirke og kongemakt"
Lecture notes from my graduate studies in history and Norwegian language, University of Bergen and Rogaland College

My comments in my first post still stand. I have no desire to keep up this debate, neither here nor by email as suggested.

Regards,

Balder

[Balder]

hardrede,

I still do not want to continue this debate, to me there is nothing more to debate. Everything that I've stated in my posts can be found in my afore-mentioned sources and in the Norwegian edition of Snorre Sturlason's sagas - for Svein's fleeing I even gave a specific reference to where it can be found. If you have other sources that say differently, I'm sure that the University of Bergen would be more than interested:

Universitetet i Bergen
Post box 7800
N- 5020 Bergen
Norway



Balder

[colt21a]

balder i like the stories,and arthur mentioned sardine's.....well i enjoy king oscar's about twice a week,the ones they get from the icy fjord's in norway,well at least thats what they say on the box.$2.25 a can at trader joe's.......

and "edge of darkness" is a favorite pic of mine "free Norway"

lets have fun here guy's..............man if this board turns out like a few others i have been on,then even thompson guys can't get along!!!

we are beyond help.wink!!!and whatever the subject was i lost it..........take care,ron colt 21a

[hawksnest]

If you guys can't end the war, how about at least a truce?

[Poprivit]

Hey guys,

(Proper interlude and the music rises up ...)

"Thanks for the entertainment."

Sung to the tune of "Thanks for the memories"

This be fun to watch - keep it up.

[Sgt]

Gosh! So much going on, I can figure out who's hitting who. All we need to do is hand out the pies. luv!

[Mike45]

For some reason I thought I was on the Thompson board.