Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

21/28 Overstamp But No "navy" Mark


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 Ron Mills

Ron Mills

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1256 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:On a quiet tree-lined street
  • Interests:All Thompson models and accessories

Posted 23 January 2004 - 12:36 PM

I have the old "4 in 1" book for the Thompson...divided into "Model 1928"; "Basic Field Manual M1928A1"; "Ordnance Maintenace, '28A1"; and "Model M1". Put out by Combat Bookshelf years ago. Anyway, on page 27 is serial number 3386, a Colt, with a very nice job done on the overstamp. It's barely visible. But wait, no "U.S. Navy" above it. Also the side-mounted swivel on the vertical foregrip. This part of the book ("Model 1928" manual) was published in London, so I'd guess it was a Lend-Lease gun. Did I miss something in Frank's book regarding this? I've just never seen an overstamp that didn't say "U.S. Navy" on it. I can't post pix, or I certainly would.
Pardon my ignorance on this one. Thanks, troops.

Ron
  • 0

#2 21 smoker

21 smoker

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1333 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West coast ,FL
  • Interests:collecting nfa, old cars, huntin` n fishin`, reloading ammo

    NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR
    MVPA RESTORATION MEMBER
    MARINE CORP LEAGUE PISTOL TEAM MEMBER

Posted 23 January 2004 - 12:50 PM

Ron,... I believe that you are looking at 21/28 that was not sold as a part of a military contract, more likely civilian delivery...police,coal mine,railroad,etc.Somewhere in Roger`s or Tracie`s book... I can`t remember...there is mention of this.out.
  • 0

#3 Ron Mills

Ron Mills

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1256 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:On a quiet tree-lined street
  • Interests:All Thompson models and accessories

Posted 23 January 2004 - 01:06 PM

I guess I should clarify that there are pictures of a solider in this manual, with a British-looking helmet. The confusing part of that is our helmets were the short ones too at the start of WWII, yes? I was guessing Lend-Lease because of the sling swivel in front; the helmet; and the London publishing address. If this gun was sold in civilian mode, I wonder how it got where it ended up. Thanks for the reply. Darn, I wish I could post those pix!
  • 0

#4 Balder

Balder

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 293 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 23 January 2004 - 01:20 PM

Ron,

I have the same book, it's still available from Numrich/GPC, item # 109350 @ $ 8.50. I have scanned the picture in question but I guess we can't post for the time being.

Balder
  • 0

#5 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2444 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 23 January 2004 - 01:28 PM

Ron,

I think the Cox book refers to these guns. Some of the early ones sent to England were the remaining stocks of Colt guns before the large Savage contracts. They would have been prior to Lend-Lease so the British ordered their guns directly from Auto-Ordnance as 1928 Models. The U.S. Navy markings obvioulsy wouldn't have been stamped on a foreign order. The U.S. Navy stamp was primarily a marketing gimmick by Auto-Ordnance and most went to police agencies.
  • 0

#6 21 smoker

21 smoker

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1333 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West coast ,FL
  • Interests:collecting nfa, old cars, huntin` n fishin`, reloading ammo

    NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR
    MVPA RESTORATION MEMBER
    MARINE CORP LEAGUE PISTOL TEAM MEMBER

Posted 23 January 2004 - 02:37 PM

Ron,... I have a Savage 1928 #24169(1st prod. run) that is Brit. proofed no Navy ... perhaps this is what you see in the pic.out.
  • 0

#7 Balder

Balder

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 293 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 23 January 2004 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE (21 smoker @ Jan 23 2004, 02:37 PM)
Ron,... I have a Savage 1928 #24169(1st prod. run) that is Brit. proofed no Navy

Wow....

21 smoker, so do I, SN # S-245XX. They must have left the factory the same week at the least. In deed it is a small world.

Apart from that, I think gijive is correct in assuming that the gun in Ron's book is a Colt.

Regards,

Balder



  • 0

#8 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2444 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 23 January 2004 - 02:44 PM

21 Smoker,

The picture Ron is referring to appears in several reprint publications and is from an original British manual dated 1940. The gun is clearly marked as a Colt made Thompson and only the Colt made guns had the U.S. Navy Model overstamped above the model designation and serial number.

Savage made guns were not stamped with the U.S. Navy Model designation nor was the 8 stamped over the 1 as in Model of 1921. By the time Savage started production the 1928 Model was standard and the guns were engraved Model of 1928.
  • 0

#9 Arthur Fliegenheimer

Arthur Fliegenheimer

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3471 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 January 2004 - 03:43 PM

Ever notice the wide range of the accuracy, depth and spacing of the "U.S. Navy" and overstamp "8" on these models. Some stampings are very precise and level, while others are faint, and on an angle. Some "8's" are stamped in such a way that it looks like "Model of 19218", instead of "Model of 192B", (the comma being in various places on the "8"). Maybe these sloppy overstamps were made by Auto-Ord employees during Prohibiton, (rottgut, bathtub gin), and the clean ones made after 1932, (bonded liquor).
  • 0

#10 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2444 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 23 January 2004 - 03:56 PM

I have noticed Arthur, although I haven't actually observed as many original models over the years as I would have liked to:-)

Bathtub gin vs. bonded liquor, hah! Good observation.
  • 0

#11 Balder

Balder

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 293 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 23 January 2004 - 05:05 PM

Ron,

The book from 1940 does not show a lend-lease gun, the lend-lease act wasn't passed until March 1941. The first guns procured under this act arrived Britain in the fall of 1941. Before this time the British government bought a lot of guns, including Thompson 1928's, directly from the manufacturer.

Balder
  • 0

#12 21 smoker

21 smoker

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1333 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West coast ,FL
  • Interests:collecting nfa, old cars, huntin` n fishin`, reloading ammo

    NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR
    MVPA RESTORATION MEMBER
    MARINE CORP LEAGUE PISTOL TEAM MEMBER

Posted 23 January 2004 - 08:21 PM

Balder,... Just way too cool! Indeed we are connected with similar 1928s...this makes the bond of our mutual appreciation of Thompsons just that much deeper.Your Tmsg if I remember from your previous posts was actually used by the Resistance during WWII, I can only speculate about mine.However, I do know they were both created to fight evil and tyranny,and protect freedom wherever they went...and for that,I feel a strong brotherhood with you.KEEPEM`SMOKIN`out. wink.gif
  • 0

#13 Ron Mills

Ron Mills

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 1256 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:On a quiet tree-lined street
  • Interests:All Thompson models and accessories

Posted 23 January 2004 - 08:43 PM

That's why I love this place! Ya know, call the cable TV company if there's a problem, and they'll "be out between 9 and 4 next Friday", is usually what I get. At this joint, you get action before the sun goes down! Hope I didn't offend anybody connected with a cable company on here.
Anyway, thanks much for all the help and info. And yes, Arthur, the wide range of accuracy on the overstamp is amazing. The one in that book is about the best I've seen. Maybe it was a Tuesday A.M. job. Just hom wink.gif e-brew the nite before...
  • 0

#14 1921A

1921A

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 543 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 January 2004 - 11:03 PM

The U.S. Army also purchased a number of 21/28 overstamps but without the "Navy" markings. They were marked Model of 1928A1. I observed one of these years ago from the midwest. If I remember correctly, it came from a reserve or guard unit to a PD and then sold to a class 3 I knew. I have a picture of it somewhere - clearly shows a gun marked as you describe. I also saw a Colt 1927 semi-automatic that was returned to Auto Ordnance and "overstamped" 1928. It had "auto" stamped in where it was originally milled out. That one belonged to a dealer in Nashville. There are quite a few weird variations floating around out there.

Greg Fox
  • 0

#15 Roger in AZ

Roger in AZ

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 24 posts
  • Location:Phoenix, Arizona

Posted 23 January 2004 - 11:41 PM

I was told there are a few Colt 28's that do not have the U. S. Navy stamped on them Just the 8 overstamped on the 1 in 1921. I have a friend that has a British Lend Lease Colt 28 that is stamped US 1928 A1 with the 8 overstamped on the 1 in 1921 and with US and A1 stamped on the gun at a later date. If memory serves me correct there are some picture of a similar gun in Tracy Hills book as well photos of a non US Navy stamped 1928 Colt.

Roger

  • 0

#16 Balder

Balder

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 293 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 24 January 2004 - 05:45 AM

QUOTE (21 smoker @ Jan 23 2004, 08:21 PM)
Your Tmsg if I remember from your previous posts was actually used by the Resistance during WWII, I can only speculate about mine.

21 smoker,

Mine was used either by the Brits during WW2 or by Norwegian forces in the UK. After the war it was used on Norwegian Navy MTBs until the 1970's from what I can gather.

We have all seen pictures of British soldiers carrying the Thompson, the truth of the matter is that it didn't really see much British front line use after the introduction of the STEN in 1941. They found it too heavy and bulky, it was issued mostly to the Home Guard and used on Navy vessels.

In Jan/Feb 1943, the Linge Company (an elite Norwegian commando unit closely associated with the SOE) staged Operation Carhampton on the occupied Norwegian coast. In the early 70's I talked to one of the participating soldiers who had been equipped with a 1928 and an L-drum - he did not have many good things to say about it. What he particularly mentioned was all the noise the loaded drum had made as he was trying to sneak up on the German sentries.

The Norwegian resistance used Thompsons, but only as personal sidearms for the agents (also Company Linge personnel) who were sent in to assist them. Thompsons were never received in regular supply drops - weight & volume are definitely issues when air-dropping supplies. The resistance received thousands of STENs, which was better suited for clandestine operations. I'll upload some pictures of Thompsons in the Resistance if and when that becomes an option again.

Regards,

Balder
  • 0

#17 gijive

gijive

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2444 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Thompson SMG, WWII, Firearms in general.

Posted 24 January 2004 - 12:49 PM

Roger in AZ,

There are all sorts of variations and markings on Colt Thompsons, that is what makes the collecting and discussion of them so fascinating. Auto-Ordnance would do anything to please the customer to sell the guns during the 1930's. I would venture to guess that if a police agency ordered a 1928 Model and requested that the U.S. Navy markings not be applied, Auto-Ordnance would accomodate them. Conversely, if a police agency ordered a U.S. Navy Model 1928, that's what was put on the gun because that was the current sales promotion after 1928.

Several Colt guns that made their way into the Army's inventories were retro stamped US Model of 1928A1. The guns were more than likely delivered by Auto-Ordnance overstamped 1928. The U.S. Army armorers probably stamped the guns with the US and A1 added. I wouldn't think they came from Auto-Ordnance that way, although who knows?
  • 0