
Matching Serial Numbers On Colt Thompson's
#1
Posted 23 January 2004 - 11:52 PM
Thanks
Roger
#2
Posted 24 January 2004 - 12:04 AM
The buttstock numbers had nothing to do with the reveiver number just as the Colt drum numbers had nothing to do with the receiver number.
#3
Posted 24 January 2004 - 01:10 AM
Arthur's signature says that J. Thompson had little in common with R. MacGuire. He is right. J. Thompson sold less than 10,000 guns and MacGuire sold over a million of the same design. MacGuire produced all parts in house. Auto Ordnance working with colt could not achieve this. Colts were mass produced and Savages were mass produced. Same gun, same machines, same design. Go figure.
Jr
#4
Posted 24 January 2004 - 01:34 AM
I only discovered this recently when I was cleaning up #389 which prompted me to have a look at all of them.
All three also have the little anchor on the very front on the stock wood.
I admit that the numbers on the stock plate are not stamped but allmost look like they have been scribed on.
Now seeing all of the Colts I have ever owned,eight of them,have all been of the first 1000, then maybe something is significant about them . Also as all are Irish Swords and mostly untouched apart from some having the serial numbers struck off, and not too well I might add, maybe many of the first 1000 did have matching stock plates.
Kind wishes,
#5
Posted 24 January 2004 - 05:29 AM
How about a snapshot of the #'s you mention from the buttstock plate and wood?
michael
#6
Posted 24 January 2004 - 09:49 AM
#7
Posted 24 January 2004 - 10:50 AM
Yes, the early guns did have the serial number on the barrel mouth, but this was discontinued early on. As you point out, the is was done on the the first 1000 or so guns. I would be particularly interested in seeing pictures of the matching butt stock numbers in script, not stamped. Is the number in the wood also scribed on? I wonder if this could have been done at some point after production? The only numbers I have seen on butt stocks have been stamped, although admittedly I have not seen dozens of examples.
SecondAmend,
Yes, some compensators were apparently stamped with the serial number, however, this was done after the compensators were fitted to the guns The guns didn't some from Colt's that way, the compensator wasn't introduced until 1926. Maybe the agency that ordered the gun requested it or maybe it was done in-house after the gun was received. In any case it is a randon practice and not a standard numbered part.
#8
Posted 24 January 2004 - 12:51 PM
also serial #8780 has matched numbered plate and wood,my cousin's husband stamped it...along with some wood marked "cook county police"
and the ones i had a chance to take off of guns and looked,had no numbers to the rec.or frame,and all did not have a matching numbers on wood or metal buttplate,even #96 and 98#the numbers stamped are around 300 plus or so,
however they had the serial stamped in the chamber area,along with number gun #106 and #103
i wish i had gotten along to own more early number gun's.but that was all they had around when i was buying........
i missed a few early number gun's in those days but not many,hope this help's.....and i did know a few guys who stamped numbers on wood,so everything you see is not gospel..........
alot of swicheroo's in the past ...............fifty years.........refinish,restore,restamp,change of wood,bolts spring's...........
serial #98 even had a crowned british proof stamp on the bolt,and #103 had a defined {c} stamp.on the bolt .with slot?notch cut> early actuator..........go figure....have fun..take care,ron
#9
Posted 24 January 2004 - 01:01 PM
A. 15,000 Colt TSMGs' produced in 18 months is not considered a "mass production" especially compared to the WWII Thompson run of 1,785,187 produced over four years, and many not from the original design. Maguire had Savage in Uttica, New York, and AO in Bridgeport, Connecticut making the Thompson. Hardley an "in house effort". Also, Lyman Corporation of Middlefield, Connecticut produced the sights, and the Cutts compensators during WWII, just as they did when Colt was making the Thompson.
B. But let us look at the character of Russell Maguire:
Maguire's business dealings revealed him to be a war profitier, rather than a defense production hero. The Army investigated Auto-Ord contracts and found that the government was being chiseled out of an extra $6,500,000. by Maguire. The contract was renegotiated in 1942, and Maguire reimbursed the $6.5 mil along with an additional $750,000. penalty.
C. The fact that Savage did not have a design of their own to produce 18-years after the Colt TSMG rolled off the production lines, said something about Savage's cutting edge place in the gun industry. The reason the Thompson became a cheaply made slam-fire weapon in Maguire's hands is not because the original design needed any improvements, but only to increase profits for himself, which meant the need to decrease production time.
D. Maguire ran afoul of the SEC (Securities Exchange Commission) before WWII and again in 1945. Maguire's foray into publishing also resulted in embarrassment and ridicule. He also bought the magazine "American Mercury", formely edited by the redoubtable H.L. Menkin, as a propaganda rag to circulate his antisemetic views, and accusations that Presdient Eisenhower was a Communist.
#10
Posted 25 January 2004 - 12:41 AM
QUOTE |
A. 15,000 Colt TSMGs' produced in 18 months is not considered a "mass production" |
Wrong. It was mass produced.
The manufacture of goods in large quantities, often using standardized designs and assembly-line techniques.
This applies to colt in 21 and 22.
1A.
QUOTE |
Also, Lyman Corporation of Middlefield, Connecticut produced the sights, and the Cutts compensators during WWII, just as they did when Colt was making the Thompson. |
Thank you for helping prove that colt did the same thing as Savage. Savage did MORE to produce in house than colt did. Savage=better.
2.
QUOTE |
Maguire's business dealings revealed him to be a war profitier |
Your opinion. Worthless as it may be, its still your opinion. EVERYONE who knew how to make money was a war profitier.
3.
QUOTE |
The fact that Savage did not have a design of their own to produce 18-years after the Colt TSMG rolled off the production lines, said something about Savage's cutting edge place in the gun industry. |
OPPS! colt did NOT design the Thompson. Savage produced copies of the original, just as colt did.
3A.
QUOTE |
The reason the Thompson became a cheaply made slam-fire weapon |
I think its time you stop insulting the NON cOLT owners on this board and admit that the "other" Thompson owners are just as important (if not more so) than a colt owner. Colt firearms company manufactured guns. So did Savage and West Hurley. They made just as good a gun (or better) than any colt that came off of the assembly line. Colts were mass produced, they fired too fast for the military, the were blued, and there were a number of other problems with them. Not the least of which was they were used by hit men, killers, booze runners, etc...
I am tired of colt snobs. Colt did nothing more than manufacture a firearm. So did everyone else. Arthur and other colt snobs are a dying breed. People who study the firearm already see that colt did not contribute that much to the firearm community, as they just produce guns on someone elses designs. The OLDER generation thinks that colt is king. Colt is not king, colt is a company that makes guns, just like Ruger, Savage, Remington, FN, etc... The credit belongs to the designer, not the company. The best firearms designers in the world were named John.
John Browning
John Thomspon
In that order too.
John Jr (no I don't design firearms, I just want to keep it real here)
#11
Posted 25 January 2004 - 03:17 PM
I didn't say the Savage models were made cheaply, I said they were cheaply made. There is a difference. The first implies a lack of quality; the latter means at a low cost. Savage did not produce copies of the 1919, which by your definition was the original TSMG. You seem to be caught up in your own doublespeak.
The sad fact is that when Thomas Fortune Ryan died, the future fortunes of the Thompson were eventually left to the mercy of an unscrupulous, antisemetic con man in the guise of Maguire. The fact that Thompson distinguished itself in WWII, Korea, and other hotspots, is incidental to the character of Maguire, but rather it is a testimonial to the genious of John T. whose creation eventually became synonymous with being on the side of law and order in the ultimate struggle against tyranny.
#12
Posted 25 January 2004 - 05:56 PM
#13
Posted 25 January 2004 - 06:57 PM
#14
Posted 25 January 2004 - 11:01 PM

I'd take a Savage 1928 anyday if I could only have one Thompson, but there is something to be said for the beautiful bluing on an original Colt Thompson. Mine came from SFPD (so not all were used by criminals)

#15
Posted 25 January 2004 - 11:27 PM
QUOTE |
but there is something to be said for the beautiful bluing on an original Colt Thompson |
How true of the bluing. original is SUCH an overused, misused word in the firarms community. But thats life. A colt PD gun would be a great addition to any collection. If they didn't cost so much, I would consider one.
I have heard there is such a thing as a Colt Collectors Assn. Wonder if AF is a member.
Jr
#16
Posted 27 January 2004 - 01:09 PM
QUOTE |
Millionaire Thompson machine-gun heir Russell Maguire Jr has been sentenced to nine years in prison for violating his probation for the fourth time. Maguire, 71, has been in and out of the Florida courts, jail and prison since 1984, when he was charged with molesting an 8-year-old girl in Clearwater. Since 1995 he has heen on house arrest in Redington Shores. The house arrest stemmed from the 1984 molestation case. Circuit Judge Lauren Laughlin last week found he had violated his house arrest. Maquire had not been receiving his court-mandated psychological counseling, Assistant State Attorney Doug Ellis said. And in May 1996, Ellis said, Maguire violated his house arrest by spending two hours in a grocery store, trying to talk to one underage girl who walked away from him, then blocking a checkout line for 15 minutes to chat with the 16-year-old cashier.[ |