Unknown BAR Mag

[emmagee1917]

Traded 3 12-round Reising mags for 11 BAR mags at the last gun show. Was loading them up to take them out for testing tomorrow , but one of them will not load 30-06 rounds. It started as a BAR mag , but the rear inner has two parallel ribs along the edges for a shorter round , maybe .308-ish. The follower has been notched to clear these ribs with the space between still full length. Just in front of the notches , two holes have been drilled and you can see the rear loop of the mag spring in them. The retangular cut in the front edge of the mag has been rounded an deepened a smidge and a U-cut made between the ris to what would have been the top edge of the latch at the rear. A new locking ledge has been cut where the middle groove would be in the BAR mag. The lower rib groove remains.

It will no longer lock in a BAR. It is not a blank mag .It is not the curved .303 mag. It is not the .280 mag.Might be a model D mag perhaps ? Not the curved swedish.

Looks like the best bet is the Model D in .308 as it looks to have a below-the-trigger-guard mag latch.

Can anyone confirm ?

Rare ? Price ?

Chris

[dalbert]

My guess is going to be FN-D mag. I don't believe they sell at much of a premium. My buddy in Austin has one, and I bet he has at least 30 mags for the MG already, The guns are much less common than the mags, if that is what the mag is for.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[winbar]

Chris,

Looking in Jim Ballou's book, it might be from an FN Model 30. There are no close-up pictures of the mags, but they do not appear to have the re-enforcing "X" stamped in the mags like the FN D's. The follower you describe sounds like the FN D's. The mods to the back of the mag were done to allow the last round slide lock-out feature which was also used on the FN Model 30. If you belong to WWII BARMAN you could post your question there. I know George Knott owned an FN 30 parts set at one time and could probably verify, especially if you post a picture.

Doug

[dalbert]

This was forwarded to me by my buddy in Austin regarding the magazine:

 

From all his description it sounds like an FN-D mag. FN-30 mags are the same as far as I know. Those two holes on the follower are on some and not on others. Maybe they help hold the spring? You may ask him if 30.06 rounds fit in it or just 8mm (which is the same mag as the 7 x 57mm mag) There is another way to tell by looking at the re-enforcing "X" and the gap to the rear vertical indent. If it's touching then it's a 8mm / 7mm mag. A 1/4" gap then it's a 30.06 mag. Guess I should take some comparison pics.

 

As you know the .308 mags are FN-FAL mags. The adapter that converted the guns to hold the mags has the mag lock lever moved from the center to the rear edge for FAL mags.

 

And this follow-up:

 

I looked more closely at the followers with the two holes and I was right. They aren't completely punched out, so it makes a tab for the mag spring to lock into.

 

Many thanks to "Trog" for the above information.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[emmagee1917]

Well , I went shooting over the weekend and took the mag along. I used to shoot M14 and HK .308s , but have not for many a year. A friend had a .308 with him , and I did not realize how puny they were. This is not a .308 mag. I do not have any 7 or 8 MM to try , but it could be one of those. The mag has the same side rib pattern as a 30-06 , but the rear vertical groove is about 7/16s from the back edge ( vs about 3/16s ) and about 7/32 wide ( vs a simple groove ) . There is nothing "X" pattern on it.The rear of the hump on the follower matches the 30-06 , but the nose of the hump travels about 1/8 inch further forward , aligning more with the center of the front body groove.

30-06 ammo will not fit in. That's what tipped me off something was wrong. The very tip of the bullet woud stick out. Placing BAR mags in my BAR , the new lockong groove would align with the lower edge of the trigger housing , so it has to be of that family sub-type.

Ah-ha , I think I found it. Winbar looks to be right . Pg 394 of Jim's book. The cutaway of the FN mod 30 looks to be it. Grooves , lowered mag catch , and if you look up into the reciever cutaway , you can see the bases of the rounds pushed slightly forward of the rear of the mag , possibly by those internal spacers.

Does anyone want to trade mags ?

Chris

[dalbert]

emmagee1917,

 

Here's more from "Trog":

 

By the sounds of the follow-up, he has an 8mm mag. I wish him luck finding someone that needs it. As you know most of the FN-Ds in the States are 30.06 so it would need a 1/8" plate added to the front of that mag to work in a 30.06 receiver that has been switched over to 8mm (that just takes a 8mm barrel).

It takes three modifications to a BAR mag to work in a 30.06 FN-D.

 

1) The 1/8" plate on the front (Yup the BAR mag is the same length as a 8mm mag)

2) A lower "U" cut so the bolt hold open lever doesn't hit the mag (the BAR doesn't have a bolt hold open after last round) So you would have to add a tang to the follower to operate the bolt hold open on the FN-D.

3) The mag catch notch has to be lowered 2" on the BAR mag to work in the FN-D.

 

Here's a picture of a FN-D 30.06 mag compared to a FN-d 8mm mag. (modified for 30.06 receiver)

(Comparison photo below courtesy of "Trog.")

 

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[emmagee1917]

Thanks for the pics and info.

The new locking notch checks , the removal of the BAR locking notch and rib thereof checks , there is a body cut where the old locking notch and rib around it was , and the body is BAR sized and has the wide rear side body groove. It does not have the "X" pattern stamping , however , nor is the front spacer there.

Did the FN 30 in 8MM take the oversized mag of the FN D or no ?

Chris

[Trog]

Emmagee1917,

 

No spacer was needed for a 8mm or 7mm receiver. That was an "after market" modification to adapt a 8mm mag to fit the 30.06 receiver.

 

I'm still wondering about the mag you have. Any chance you could post a picture? Do you think it was a US BAR mag that was adapted for the FN-d? I have one that was done up for my FN-d. I have no idea who did it. Definitely not factory. It has an strengthening plate on the inside, back of the mag, so it's made just for 8mm rounds. No attempt was made to add a bolt hold open tab on the follower. I once thought about copying it but I have plenty of 30.06 mags and 8mm works just fine in them, just not the other way around.

 

I have adapted my FN-d for .308, checked the headspace and hand cycled (w/o the firing pin!) it but haven't taken it out for a "hot lap".

[winbar]

Chris,

Again looking in Jim's book, it doesn't appear that the FN 30 was offered in 30-06. The FN D was not offered in 30-06 until post WWII when the Belgian army adopted 30-06 as their standard caliber. An FN D 30-06 mag won't fit in a standard BAR receiver because it is 1/8" too long due to the lockout feature. I'll horse trade you your FN 30 mag for a US GI 30-06 mag. Email me at Balmrc49@aol.com if interested.

Doug

[winbar]

Here is a pic of my Winchester/KG M1921/KG M1937/FN D B.A.R.

[emmagee1917]

Me and pictures don't get along. I have to fight every time to get everything together , then buy new batteries and retry , hunt down the cable connectors , download it to the computer , recall how to download to photobucket , fight the flood of picture copies that appear in my computer's albums , it's like Herc fighting the multi-headed critter , then getting them here. I've picture requests from months ago I'm trying to get to.

There is no tab sticking out of the rear of the mag ala Thompson. There is a tab between the two rear ribs ( just the two rear corners of the follower are notched out ) that could work on a lever sticking through the rear of the mag and stopping before the rear of the cases.

Winbar , e-mail sent. Maybe he can post a picture when he gets it.

Thanks all for your help. Chris