dalbert Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 All, I picked up a box of WWII vintage .45 ACP ammunition at OGCA 2 weekends ago to add to my Thompson ammunition collection, and I'm starting to think it could be a unique find. I corresponded with Roscoe Turner about the box, and he mentioned that the recent Meadows M1911 book might provide insight. I was finally able to take a look at my Meadows book today, and there is a picture of a similar box. However, Meadows indicates that military .45 ACP was not packaged in 50-round boxes until 1943. So, my question is whether Meadows arrived at the 1943 date based on observations as a collector, or if he found an official publication that documented the changeover. The reason I ask this is that my Remington Arms ammunition is dated 1942, and is in a 50-round box. Here are some photos: I suppose it's possible that earlier Remington Arms ammunition could have been placed in this ammo box, but I doubt it. The box seems transitional, in my opinion, because it uses the old 20-round box print design, but is printed on the larger, 50-round box. I think this box may indicate that the changeover from 20-round to 50-round boxes occurred a year earlier than previously thought. Does anyone here have any input on this subject? Perhaps some insight into lot numbers - the lot number on my box is 5406. BTW, the Meadows book has an excellent section on military .45 ACP ammunition. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 How do the cases fall in the manufacture order of production ? I know a rifle made in a certain month can have a barrel , as an example , 1-3 months earlier. I wonder if a '43 lot could have '42 cases ?Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 How do the cases fall in the manufacture order of production ? I know a rifle made in a certain month can have a barrel , as an example , 1-3 months earlier. I wonder if a '43 lot could have '42 cases ?Chris Chris, I'd say that's definitely a possible scenario. Good insight. Does anyone have other suggestions/ideas, or confirmations of an actual date of changeover? David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 Below is information I shared with David from History of Modern US Military Small Arms Ammunition Vol. II 1940-1945 by Hackley, Woodin and Scranton published in 1978. Are the cases copper plated or will they attract a magnet? These could be out of that lot sent to Frankford Arsenal. Reading in History of Modern US Military Small Arms Ammunition Vol. II 1940-1945 it mentions an experimental lot of copper plated steel case ammunition being shipped from Remington to Frankford Arsenal beginning August 1942 in standard military 50 round boxes without a lot number stamping. The ammunition headstamp was R.A. 42. The ammunition was tested at Frankford November 42. This is the earliest mention of the 50 round box I have found. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 Are the cases copper plated or will they attract a magnet?[/i] RoscoeTurner, Negative on the magnetic attraction. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) RA Lot # 5391 Headstamp(s) RA 42. Different nomenclature style on this box and also a top opening lid with hinge on back. Edited March 20, 2012 by inertord 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 It's looking more and more like the 50-round box was introduced in 1942... David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 You have original 1942 Remington ammo in the original 1942 box. (I have a tendancy to overthink things, too!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 FWIW here is RA41 Headstamp(s) still being packed in the 20 round box. The Lot Number is faded and appears to be 12??. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 David, You may want to post a photo and your question on the IAA broad - http://cartridgecollectors.org/forumintro.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 David, You may want to post a photo and your question on the IAA broad - http://cartridgecoll.../forumintro.htm RoscoeTurner, I did some searches on the IAA board yesterday, and will post this topic for conversation there tonight. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 I have their CD that covers the IAA archives from 1955 to 2005 and when I get a chance I will do some research there on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I posted it in the IAA forum at the following link: http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12463 We'll see what the ammunition aficionados on that board say about it. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulJicha Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Does anyone have dimensions for the 50 round box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Below is information I shared with David from History of Modern US Military Small Arms Ammunition Vol. II 1940-1945 by Hackley, Woodin and Scranton published in 1978. Are the cases copper plated or will they attract a magnet? These could be out of that lot sent to Frankford Arsenal. Reading in History of Modern US Military Small Arms Ammunition Vol. II 1940-1945 it mentions an experimental lot of copper plated steel case ammunition being shipped from Remington to Frankford Arsenal beginning August 1942 in standard military 50 round boxes without a lot number stamping. The ammunition headstamp was R.A. 42. The ammunition was tested at Frankford November 42. This is the earliest mention of the 50 round box I have found. RoscoeTurner, Can you tell me what page the reference above can be found in Hackley's book? I don't have it, and someone on the IAA forum is asking about where we are getting the 1943 date assumption. Thanks! David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 The 43 date came out of Meadows. The information about the 42 dated Remington ammuntion is from p. 14 of Hackley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted April 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 All, This conversation is getting pretty interesting on the IAA board. Many of yuo know that I have a keen interest in the French connection to the TSMG, and it apppear that some newly rediscovered information may exist in regards to the TSMG's in the second French order that never made it to France. http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12463 David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Doc Av is an excellent source of information regarding the 45 ACP cartridge, he is collector in Australia. His reference reminds me of the photo I submited of repackaged Winchester ammunition by the Japanese. However that was a commerical box of 42 cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now