61 replies to this topic

[PhilOhio]

I had to fish this thread out of the bone yard to warn you guys away from the Kahr M-1 carbines, which are starting to turn up at gun shows. I've just had the "opportunity" to intimately explore two of them, inside and out, in the course of making them useable as safe shooters. That's the best you can hope for, it appears. And these guns were in virtual brand new condition, because the owner had not had very good luck making them shoot.

Don't, don't, don't buy one unless you know it works, the price is cheap, and you only plan to bump it around on the floor under the seat of your 1947 dump truck.

The story: A good shooting friend is the son-in-law of an affluent and aged local man who buys everything new which shoots, as soon as it comes out. He heard about the Kahr carbines in late 2005 and thought he might like to have one for conversion to 5.7mm Johnson (the M-1 carbine round necked down to .223). So he bought two of these brand new Kahrbines in early January 2006; bought two new 5.7 barrels, case forming dies, reloading dies, Clymer GO and NO-GO gauges, chamber reamer, both versions of stocks (sporter and military style) for both guns, two S&K scope mounts, new scopes...i.e., the works. He spent a bundle. Then he sent the guns off to two different professional gunsmiths for conversion and setup. (The thought process sort of escapes me, but what the hey?)

Well, it all turned out to be a disaster. The guns didn't feed right, didn't function right otherwise, were not accurate or reliable, and became something he simply did not want to think about anymore. So he didn't. This man is in his late 80s, and has always gathered around him the finer things in life. But when he runs into a problem, he takes the bypass right away; won't hassle with warranties and resale of a clunker.

Recently he heard my friend, his son-in-law, wanted to build another gun, so he told him he could get rid of these two Kahr turkeys in the process maybe, to raise money. And would I replace the .30 barrels, check things out, and make them marketable or give-awayable? Silly me: "Sure."

Well, I got more hands-on experience with brand new non-functional Kahr carbines than I ever wanted or expected, even though all the Kahr Thompson quality stories on this board had me in the alert mode. I finished the whole nightmare last night, after working on them off and on over January. I never want to see another Kahr Arms M-1 carbine again. Here's what I found.

All four stocks were poorly made from wood best described as trash. On both military style stocks, the recoil plate nut holes were drilled twice too deep, so they had to be epoxy filled, to keep the too-long bolt from pulling the nut all the way up into the stock and sticking out. Thus repaired, the action stays in there a little better.

Two of the investment cast recoil lugs had the hole drilled undersize, so they ground the recoil plate screws undersize to fit. (This turned out to be a common Kahr solution to dimension problems. Wherever they made something wrong, they just ground up something else to make it fit; they chase wrong dimensions.)

The barrel band assemblies (both types used on two military stocks) were...well, stamped metal garbage. Nothing fit right. Best to just throw it away.

The sporter stocks were disasters. Both appeared to have been factory inletted for some other type of action than M-1 carbine, with large...I mean LARGE...gaps, 1/2" wide or so at various points. A joke. The front retaining assemblies were both screwed up and chewed up from the factory. But they had tried hard to make them fit and had sort of got them on there.

The barrels weren't too bad, but the metallurgy in the investment cast gas cylinders was not right. One of them was badly split and deformed by normal working pressure after just a few rounds. And the inner part of one cheaply made gas piston nut was brittle and had broken into numerous small pieces. But the pistons looked O.K. and well made. So were the bores of the barrels.

One of the factory bolts was the flat type and seemed O.K. and well made. The other was the round M-2 style, poorly made and finished, and the metal appeared soft. After just a few rounds, it was deforming around the rear.

In the mechanism, everything was investment cast and much was poorly fitting, and barely functional or not functional. I made it work by reshaping, grinding, filing, hand fitting, etc. That's the only way one of these is going to work. And that appears to have been what they did at the factory...half way. No way could you retro fit G.I. parts to one of these losers, unless something might fit, just by accident.

I can't even describe the poorly manufactured and finished investment cast slides. Forget about blueprint dimensions.

The investment cast receivers didn't look bad and were marked Auto Ordnance. But the metallurgy was fishy. The Kahr factory rear sights had been removed and lost during scope mounting, so I obtained NOS G.I. sights and thought I would drift them on in a couple minutes. Again, silly me. Both dovetail receiver sight "cuts" appeared to not be cuts at all, but just the way the receivers were molded. The G.I. parts could not possibly fit. One groove was nearly 1/8" undersize in width. They must have ground a rear sight until they could hammer it on there. I nearly destroyed a dovetail cutter trying to clean the first slot on my milling machine. I switched to diamond cutters and files, and got the slots up to milspec...wasting the better part of an evening in the process...my love for those Kahr craftsmen growing all the time. PK knows the feeling.

Several weeks earlier, I had replaced each .30 barrel (both made by Kahr or their subcontractor) on the receiver to which it had been originally fitted and headspaced. Thread timing was O.K., but the threads on one barrel were way over spec. It required very careful jigging and lubing to get it on without marring or breaking something, like a receiver. Apparently, that had bothered nobody at the factory.

Everything was screwed up. Front sight pin holes were not right, but they fudged that dimension by using stamped metal roll pins...which are O.K., but... The sights would go on...one easily, one not so much so. But nothing was close to G.I. specs.

I'm not a big critic of investment cast parts. I think they are O.K., and the metallurgy can be O.K. if done right. But these guys made no effort to clean up the castings, to make them look presentable, fit correctly, and work right. A couple seconds on the wheel could have cleaned up parting lines, burrs, etc. Nobody bothered. Just get the crap billed and out the door.

Each carb came with a factory 15-round mag. One fit, but the other only came within about 1/8" of latching. Only friction kept it there. It could never have fed cartridges. Mr. Dremel and I fixed it. Both mags looked like black park, but the scratches and flaking convinced me it was more likely a spray finish of some sort.

Investment cast magazine latches were poorly made and way undersized for their (cast in) cuts in the receivers. And they didn't have the right clearance with the stock wood. The whole thing was just a mess.

They want around $500 or more for just the plane Jane version of this turkey. CMP has really nice rack grade ex-military M-1 carbines right now, all you want, for about $410. It's a no brainer. Wood is good, bores great, everything gauged and hand-approved by an expert armorer before they will let you have it. And the thing is safe and works 100% every time. Very nice barreled receivers (which they consider nit picky rejects) are $150. I just made two beautiful carbines from them. So now I have five. Which probably isn't enough.

So if you want an M-1 carbine, the Moonies might not be the folks to see.

Long ago, my Army issue weapon was the M-1 carbine, and I won military competitions with one right off the rack. In the reserves, I was an ad hoc armorer for these and 1911s. I just love them to pieces. After being Mooned and Kahred this month, it's such a joy just to sit and look at, and work the actions of, my former military issue carbines. Never a bad surprise.

Oh, I forgot...and to get back on topic...the front page of the manual that comes with these...uh...things says, "OWNER'S MANUAL, TO BE USED FOR AUTO-ORDNANCE M1 CARBINE, Maker of the world famous "TOMMY GUN"TM".

They didn't want us to forget that "TM". Wonder how general T would feel about it? He was born too early to have ever heard the term "Kahred again." Guess it's just as well.

*Edited 28 Jan 08 to correct original purchase date.

Edited by PhilOhio, 28 January 2008 - 11:22 AM.

[TSMGguy]

I purchased on of these about six months ago and wrote an extensive review of it in the M1/M2 Carbine section of these boards. The review went away.

Anyway, I'm extremely impressed with the gun. It emulates a WWII gun with the early flip sights, push button safety, flat bolt, and type one barrel band. Everything on it that isn't walnut is steel. Fit and finish are excellent throughout. As many of the parts are modern steel castings, the finish is much better throughout than the wartime guns.

I ran 150 rounds through it the day I got it and had no failures. It is extremely accurate and very light and handy, as the early wartime guns were before the weight crept up.

Kahr even went to the trouble to use the same wooden blank for the stock and handguard, so the wood grain matches throughout. The gun is neatly parked in black, with the exception of the bolt and rear sight, which are blued as the originals were. The original receiver ring markings are duplicated, but the serial has been moved to the forward left side of the receiver. the receiver has the ring of high quality steels.

I bought a reproduction khaki sling and ammo pouch from atthefront.com and the gun looks perfectly WWII. I gotta recommend this one, guys. I don't know what Phil had his hands on, but I found precisely NONE of the problems listed. I bought the gun largely based on a very positive NRA Rifleman write up, and it turned out to be an accurate review in every detail.

Edited by TSMGguy, 27 January 2008 - 10:22 PM.

[reconbob]

Ya know Phil, after reading your tale of woe I am reminded that
(if i recall correctly) both the Kahr Thompson and the Kahr M-1 Carbine
were "tested" by the American Rifleman and given a clean bill of health.
Even more confusing after reading TSMG's post...

Bob

Edited by reconbob, 27 January 2008 - 11:21 PM.

[RoscoeTurner]

Ya know Phil, after reading your tale of woe I am reminded that
(if i recall correctly) both the Kahr Thompson and the Kahr M-1 Carbine
were "tested" by the American Rifleman and given a clean bill of health.
Even more confusing after reading TSMG's post...

Bob

Have you ever seen "American Rifleman" review a product from one of their advertisers and not recommend it? It does not happen.

[hawksnest]

Phil has forgotten more about gunsmithing than I will ever know, so when it comes to an opinion on quality, workmanship and materials, I side with Phil. My .02.

[reconbob]

I agree that Phil knows his stuff. But I also think that TSMGguy knows his stuff too.
The curiousity is - how did two knowledgable guys end up with such completely different
examples of the same gun?

Bob

[First Sergeant]

I'm thinking early production gun versus and newer production gun that had the bugs worked out of it after trial and error. Phil mentioned the two guns he worked on were from 2003. We all know Kahr's reputation in putting something out there and then getting it to work, look and feel the way it's suppose to much later, Maybe the engineering finally caught up with where it should have been from day one. Or it could be much the same as the Kahr L drums, most didn't work but a few worked flawless. The ones I had were on each end of that spectrum.

[PhilOhio]

Guys,

I think First Sergeant may have the answer to this. The guns I have reworked must have been some of the first ones out. (Correcting what I said before, I just looked at the receipts, which were for the second week in January 2006.) They may even have been special ordered; I'm not sure.

TSMGguy,

I don't for a second doubt the accuracy of your review on your own gun, which may have been built as late as mid-2007. I didn't start work on these two carbines expecting anything like I found. But I was at least skeptical, or apprehensive, knowing Kahr's track record. On the other hand, several members here had bought them or examined them, and said they were just fine. And I trusted their objectivity, as I do yours.

And so, Reconbob, I think this may answer your question. We're both right, or at least accurate in describing our experiences with the Kahr carbines. I only hope that the ones being sold today, in 2008, are all good ones.

Roscoe, Bob,

As for your lack of regard for the new product reviews coming from NRA...you guys and me both. With me, they lost all credibility after their rave review of the Kahr Thompson, and comments on the company, etc. Total B.S....actually, I guess, outright misleading. I am the NRA, and nope, Wayne LaPierre doesn't represent me.

Hawksnest,

Thanks for the compliment, but PK's the guy who has forgotten more about gunsmithing than the rest of us combined. This is just something that I enjoy, and am forever learning as much about it as I can soak up. The absurdity of it is that just when we start figuring it all out, somebody spoils the party by nailing a lid shut on us. In the meantime, it sure is a lot of fun learning and being able to enjoy the results.

On Saturday, I told my buddies that what has actually happened is that I have become almost a full time gunsmith with one customer; me. The price is always right, I never demand a refund, and I never sic lawyers on the gunsmith for screewing up. I may cry a little, though.

[TSMGguy]

I agree that Phil knows his stuff. But I also think that TSMGguy knows his stuff too.
The curiousity is - how did two knowledgable guys end up with such completely different
examples of the same gun?

Bob

Ya got me there, Bob. Phil is a respected member of these boards, and I value his views. It's like we ended up with completely different pieces.

I bought mine from an outfit that is out of state, and insisted on a three day non-firing inspection. The gun showed up, and the packaging was secure and very well done. It felt and looked right. Taking the non-firing idea to the extreme, I ordnance stripped the gun and minutely inspected everything. The originals exhibited excellent workmanship, as this one does, but the Kahr is better finished. Back together it went, and I headed for the range. There were no no problems with 150 rounds of original LC 60 ammo just broken out of a fresh can. No lubrication was done as I wanted to let the moving componants hone themselves in. I know nothing of metalurgy, but can spot an abnormal wear pattern, and there was none of that.

I thought that it would be slightly unfair to Kahr to try swapping out any parts for originals and then function testing again, so I resisted that idea.

The only comments I would make is that the butt plate could be a bit thicker, and the stock contours are slightly different from those of early M1 carbines. The furnished original magazine, while refinished well, was pitted, so I broke a few NOS originals out of the wrap for range use and to complete the ensam.

Everything about this little gun is pleasing to the eye and nicely executed. I like the theory that the Kahr's early efforts may may have been far off of the mark. The rifleman artice did state that a redesign was done when the suggestion was made to produce guns with the WWII features that guys wanted and would actually buy. I've collected original carbines for many years but could not stomach the Universals, Iver Johnsons, IAIs and the like, and so passed on them. This one, I like. I've retired my originals to the safe and use this one for my all around desert knock-around gun. With more dings and rubs, it will shortly be indistinguishable from original except to the knowledgable eye.

I'd have to call the gun a visually accurate reproduction, made with typical modern methods and techniques. That ain't bad, as tolerances can be well controlled these days. Run (don't walk) and git yerself one of these. (Unpaid endorsement.)

Added on edit:

This rifle was sitting at my position at the range when one of my friends wandered by, took a quick glance, and said, "That is WAY too nice to be bringing to the range." I cleared and handed him the gun and said, "Look again, good buddy." He realized what he was holding and his eyebrows met up with his hairline. "Nice," he said.

Edited by TSMGguy, 28 January 2008 - 11:56 AM.

[Z3BigDaddy]

I agree that Phil knows his stuff. But I also think that TSMGguy knows his stuff too.
The curiousity is - how did two knowledgable guys end up with such completely different
examples of the same gun?

Bob

Because some people have an agenda.... Same as with certain types of ammo... btaim I have only handled two of these guns both of which were ordered when the article broke in AR. I must say they both seemed to have great fit and finish but I didn't field strip them of course. Now my concern with the respected member from Ohio's guns is not the veracity of his statements but that a second party "worked" on the weapons after leaving the Moonies and before he ever saw them.... Who knows what kind of shenanigans were perpetrated in that time frame.

[PhilOhio]

I agree that Phil knows his stuff. But I also think that TSMGguy knows his stuff too.
The curiousity is - how did two knowledgable guys end up with such completely different
examples of the same gun?

Bob

Because some people have an agenda.... Same as with certain types of ammo... btaim I have only handled two of these guns both of which were ordered when the article broke in AR. I must say they both seemed to have great fit and finish but I didn't field strip them of course. Now my concern with the respected member from Ohio's guns is not the veracity of his statements but that a second party "worked" on the weapons after leaving the Moonies and before he ever saw them.... Who knows what kind of shenanigans were perpetrated in that time frame.

So Z3, just what might that agenda be? Since I don't have one, to whom are you referring? Same with the ammo innuendo. It seems to be virtually impossible for you to kick this deep inner need to find some way to sling mud at the slightest opening. You are unique. Nobody else on the board has exhibited this long term compulsion.

Concerning the weapons having been "worked on", none of the points I mentioned had anything to do with owner modification, as was clear from what I wrote. These were factory defects; large and small. Anybody reading it had no trouble seeing this, including you.

Guys,

The thing about these Kahr carbines (at least the early ones I checked), which still concerns me most, is what I found with the one gas cylinder housing being split and deformed from pressure, and the piston retaining nut being apparently crystalized and broken. The cylinder was investment cast. I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not. And maybe Kahr is now using a milled housing, or different metallurgy. But if any of you has one of these, a later version, I'd take a look at that gas piston assembly from time to time, just to stay on the safe side. See whether it appears to be cast or milled, and check for cracks or spreading of the metal in the threaded area.

The other thing is that, if shopping the gun shows for one of these, be aware that you could encounter one of the early problem guns, like the two I examined. Last weekend at the Berea show near Cleveland, I saw two used Kahr M-1 carbines. Both looked like new and were set up as military style, but I didn't check them closely. Remember, all of these can be no more than about two years old. A dealer had one on a table, asking $450. A guy walking the show had another one he was trying to sell for $400.

Knowing CMP has a large supply of good ex-military carbines for just over $400, why would any intelligent person pay more for the Kahr replica of at least questionable quality? I think "questionable" is a fair term to use, based both on my observations and the more favorable experience of TSMGguy. The reason for rolling dice on the used gun market totally escapes me. Of course, lots of people bought them when CMP did not have the ex-military guns and it did not appear they would be available again. Now it is quite different. In fact, if you have a Kahr carbine, for $150 you could buy a CMP milspec barreled receiver and maybe (with a little luck) fit your Kahr parts up to that...and add a real military stock. And if you want to pay about $600 for a new Kahr carbine with warranty, sure, please do so. I understand they are great folks to deal with on warranty issues.

Anyway, I learned what I learned, and that's valid and true for the two guns I examined; TSMGguy learned what he learned from the one gun he has bought and used, and I accept that he is also telling it like it is. That means that if you are thinking about buying one of these, new or used, at least be on your guard and examine closely. To try to twist any of this to invent some other meaning or significance is, indeed, to promote some personal "agenda".

But we already know who is into that and what to expect. The logic of the "why" is less clear, but we can guess.

[docmolar]

I have seen a couple of them around at shows and I thought they looked pretty good. I don`t know anyone who has one or has shot one.

[Z3BigDaddy]

I agree that Phil knows his stuff. But I also think that TSMGguy knows his stuff too.
The curiousity is - how did two knowledgable guys end up with such completely different
examples of the same gun?

Bob

Because some people have an agenda.... Same as with certain types of ammo... btaim I have only handled two of these guns both of which were ordered when the article broke in AR. I must say they both seemed to have great fit and finish but I didn't field strip them of course. Now my concern with the respected member from Ohio's guns is not the veracity of his statements but that a second party "worked" on the weapons after leaving the Moonies and before he ever saw them.... Who knows what kind of shenanigans were perpetrated in that time frame.

So Z3, just what might that agenda be? Since I don't have one, to whom are you referring? Same with the ammo innuendo. It seems to be virtually impossible for you to kick this deep inner need to find some way to sling mud at the slightest opening. You are unique. Nobody else on the board has exhibited this long term compulsion.

Concerning the weapons having been "worked on", none of the points I mentioned had anything to do with owner modification, as was clear from what I wrote. These were factory defects; large and small. Anybody reading it had no trouble seeing this, including you.

Guys,

The thing about these Kahr carbines (at least the early ones I checked), which still concerns me most, is what I found with the one gas cylinder housing being split and deformed from pressure, and the piston retaining nut being apparently crystalized and broken. The cylinder was investment cast. I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not. And maybe Kahr is now using a milled housing, or different metallurgy. But if any of you has one of these, a later version, I'd take a look at that gas piston assembly from time to time, just to stay on the safe side. See whether it appears to be cast or milled, and check for cracks or spreading of the metal in the threaded area.

The other thing is that, if shopping the gun shows for one of these, be aware that you could encounter one of the early problem guns, like the two I examined. Last weekend at the Berea show near Cleveland, I saw two used Kahr M-1 carbines. Both looked like new and were set up as military style, but I didn't check them closely. Remember, all of these can be no more than about two years old. A dealer had one on a table, asking $450. A guy walking the show had another one he was trying to sell for $400.

Knowing CMP has a large supply of good ex-military carbines for just over $400, why would any intelligent person pay more for the Kahr replica of at least questionable quality? I think "questionable" is a fair term to use, based both on my observations and the more favorable experience of TSMGguy. The reason for rolling dice on the used gun market totally escapes me. Of course, lots of people bought them when CMP did not have the ex-military guns and it did not appear they would be available again. Now it is quite different. In fact, if you have a Kahr carbine, for $150 you could buy a CMP milspec barreled receiver and maybe (with a little luck) fit your Kahr parts up to that...and add a real military stock. And if you want to pay about $600 for a new Kahr carbine with warranty, sure, please do so. I understand they are great folks to deal with on warranty issues.

Anyway, I learned what I learned, and that's valid and true for the two guns I examined; TSMGguy learned what he learned from the one gun he has bought and used, and I accept that he is also telling it like it is. That means that if you are thinking about buying one of these, new or used, at least be on your guard and examine closely. To try to twist any of this to invent some other meaning or significance is, indeed, to promote some personal "agenda".

But we already know who is into that and what to expect. The logic of the "why" is less clear, but we can guess.

Your agendas are pretty transparent... All Kahr produced firearms and accessories are crap and it is your purpose here to make sure that all are for warned prior to be duped by the Moonies. As for Wolf ammo all you posting speak for themselves.... Not to say that others here including me do not have opposite agendas. Alls I'm saying is that there is a reason you dig up a long lost thread and revive it.......

[RoscoeTurner]

I do not have an agenda but I will say based on my experience with Kahr products in my shop there will not be another one ordered. I purchased a 1911 from them last fall, first time out the front site came loose and the pistol fired like a bolt action. After each shot the trigger would not return to its forward position and the slide had to operated following each shot ejecting an unfired cartridge to allow the trigger to move to its required firing position. Other than as a fishing weight I cannot depend on a pistol like this to operate as expected. No more off brands for me.

Kahr was very good about making the repairs I should not have to work on a pistol straight out of the box to get it to work properly.

Edited by RoscoeTurner, 30 January 2008 - 08:13 AM.

[PhilOhio]

...Your agendas are pretty transparent... All Kahr produced firearms and accessories are crap and it is your purpose here to make sure that all are for warned prior to be duped by the Moonies. As for Wolf ammo all you posting speak for themselves.... Not to say that others here including me do not have opposite agendas. Alls I'm saying is that there is a reason you dig up a long lost thread and revive it.......

Well Z3, your unprovoked personal attack regarding some alleged negative "agenda" I may have is based on a false pretense, and of course the longstanding intent behind it. Or else I wouldn't be writing all this. There's a name for people who do that; starts with "L". But if I went that route, I might be perceived the same way you are, here on this board and maybe several others.

I have to admit, you're a soft target and it's a temptation to slide a little well deserved ridicule in your direction, when you repeatedly and unilaterally launch these mud slinging tirades, trying so hard to elicit a response, to make it appear that you exist. But it wouldn't accomplish much. You get the job done by posting; once again. Everybody here gets the picture. I could add a lot more, based upon your performances elsewhere. But that would only flesh out the picture and add a few laughs, at your expense. Especially those pictures; could do a whole funny slide show.

I sympathize when you feel driven to vent the frustration and these understandable feelings of inferiority and futility, chugging away at that boring job in a sad little shared office at the end of the earth, day after day, hiding behind a misleading powerhouse Internet name. Lots of people on the web do it, but most of them don't find that arbitrarily attacking others around them is the only or preferred way to work out their festering head problems and feel better about themselves. In the past (you've been doing this for years here), you have said you just "couldn't resist" or couldn't help it. I accept that, but it doesn't improve the psychic smell here. I hope your newly shortened Thompson butt stock is finally making it possible to reach all the way out there to that great big trigger. It will at least make you feel more like a gen-yoo-ine Big Daddy, sorta.

FYI:...the rest of you guys, especially new ones, arriving since Z3's last performance like this one,

For years on the board, this character has never been able to go for more than a few months or weeks without instigating some sort of nasty personal attack, usually directed against me but also against others here. But he prefers me, maybe because he knows I won't let it pass. I think he craves negative recognition, wanting to be perceived as a machinegun totin' bad ass. It appears there is not much of this in his real world life as an Oregon insurance salesman in a little cubby hole one-man office out in Grants Pass with a shared telephone.

His unprovoked insults get him that big shot recognition he wants, or so he thinks, and he escalates. He always ends up being humiliated, but never to the extent that keeps him happy and satisfied for long. When it becomes obvious that, once again, things aren't going so well for him, the guy announces that he will say no more...for the betterment of the board, of course.

Each one of these has a monotonous sameness. But unfortunately, there's always another one just around the corner.

Somewhere along this path, a board commentator always steps from the crowd and interjects a brief sanctimonious lecture to the effect that both parties have erred (which has never been the case and is never adequately explained) and the spat must be nobly ended for the common good, as it interferes with everybody's happiness. It is never explained how this "I'm O.K., you're O.K." nonsense can be true when somebody, always the same somebody, has first hurled an intentional unprovoked insult. But that's an integral article of faith in our air-headed pop culture, and this board has not been immune.

And as these other people chime in, Z3 feeds on it...the recognition and the sense that he has started it all, he's at the center.

I think some of you have noticed that, for more than a year, I have made a conscious and obvious effort to be nice to Z3, complimentary, often agreeing with some point he makes, even when it might be stretching things. Z3 is having none of that. He's not going to be tricked into being something other than what he is. So be it, I guess. They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And apparently we run into the same sort of problems in dealing with both ends of the horse.

But in all these years, nobody has seen fit to deep six the root cause, the instigator, of all these identical rifts in board harmony. Seems so simple to me. It's not about deleting posts, but ending the board access of intentionally disruptive people.

So lets see if, for the first time, this latest board gift from Mr. Z3 Big Daddy is somehow dealt with in a different way than all the other times. I.e., not at all or ineffectively. Other boards eject people with the obvious goal of intentional disruption, as soon as the track record becomes established; maybe earlier. But not this board. This guy has been given warnings by the previous moderator. His response was to proudly and contemptuously brag about it, in large red letters which he made a part of his signature on every post for awhile. It escapes me why anybody should be allowed to get away with that. Then the volunteer moderator, who had made even a mild but honest attempt to bring peace and harmony to the board, was quietly and unceremoniously terminated from that position, without the courtesy of being offered any explanation or even a comment. Yes guys, that's the true story of what happened. I suppose it has to do with judgement. Some things I have difficulty understanding, and when I tactfully ask for some sort of explanation, I get silence. That is not the way to run anything expected to work. Maturity and decisiveness count.

I think it is a tribute to the good judgement and good intentions of the rest of the people on this board that nobody else does this; or very rarely. That means a lot of people are using their heads for more than hat racks, and are having a good time here, by being good people and sharing their Thompson fun. Diversions like this one make the rest of the picture look even better. And of course the converse is true. But nothing works forever without maintenance, and this board needs some, beyond the software kind.

[Lancer]

Somewhere along this path, a board commentator always steps from the crowd and interjects a brief sanctimonious lecture to the effect that both parties have erred (which has never been the case and is never adequately explained) and the spat must be nobly ended for the common good, as it interferes with everybody's happiness. It is never explained how this "I'm O.K., you're O.K." nonsense can be true when somebody, always the same somebody, has first hurled an intentional unprovoked insult. But that's an integral article of faith in our air-headed pop culture, and this board has not been immune.

Don't worry Phil........I'll keep my sanctimoniousness to myself, you and Z3 go ahead and have your little slugfest, the board has been too quiet lately anyway. Actually it might be entertaining..........for awhile at least.
Oh...can you explain to me again the part about "unprovoked insults"?

Phil......sometimes your just a real peach of a guy.

Edited by Lancer, 30 January 2008 - 05:55 PM.

[Z3BigDaddy]

...Your agendas are pretty transparent... All Kahr produced firearms and accessories are crap and it is your purpose here to make sure that all are for warned prior to be duped by the Moonies. As for Wolf ammo all you posting speak for themselves.... Not to say that others here including me do not have opposite agendas. Alls I'm saying is that there is a reason you dig up a long lost thread and revive it.......

Well Z3, your unprovoked personal attack regarding some alleged negative "agenda" I may have is based on a false pretense, and of course the longstanding intent behind it. Or else I wouldn't be writing all this. There's a name for people who do that; starts with "L". But if I went that route, I might be perceived the same way you are, here on this board and maybe several others.

I have to admit, you're a soft target and it's a temptation to slide a little well deserved ridicule in your direction, when you repeatedly and unilaterally launch these mud slinging tirades, trying so hard to elicit a response, to make it appear that you exist. But it wouldn't accomplish much. You get the job done by posting; once again. Everybody here gets the picture. I could add a lot more, based upon your performances elsewhere. But that would only flesh out the picture and add a few laughs, at your expense. Especially those pictures; could do a whole funny slide show.

I sympathize when you feel driven to vent the frustration and these understandable feelings of inferiority and futility, chugging away at that boring job in a sad little shared office at the end of the earth, day after day, hiding behind a misleading powerhouse Internet name. Lots of people on the web do it, but most of them don't find that arbitrarily attacking others around them is the only or preferred way to work out their festering head problems and feel better about themselves. In the past (you've been doing this for years here), you have said you just "couldn't resist" or couldn't help it. I accept that, but it doesn't improve the psychic smell here. I hope your newly shortened Thompson butt stock is finally making it possible to reach all the way out there to that great big trigger. It will at least make you feel more like a gen-yoo-ine Big Daddy, sorta.

FYI:...the rest of you guys, especially new ones, arriving since Z3's last performance like this one,

For years on the board, this character has never been able to go for more than a few months or weeks without instigating some sort of nasty personal attack, usually directed against me but also against others here. But he prefers me, maybe because he knows I won't let it pass. I think he craves negative recognition, wanting to be perceived as a machinegun totin' bad ass. It appears there is not much of this in his real world life as an Oregon insurance salesman in a little cubby hole one-man office out in Grants Pass with a shared telephone.

His unprovoked insults get him that big shot recognition he wants, or so he thinks, and he escalates. He always ends up being humiliated, but never to the extent that keeps him happy and satisfied for long. When it becomes obvious that, once again, things aren't going so well for him, the guy announces that he will say no more...for the betterment of the board, of course.

Each one of these has a monotonous sameness. But unfortunately, there's always another one just around the corner.

Somewhere along this path, a board commentator always steps from the crowd and interjects a brief sanctimonious lecture to the effect that both parties have erred (which has never been the case and is never adequately explained) and the spat must be nobly ended for the common good, as it interferes with everybody's happiness. It is never explained how this "I'm O.K., you're O.K." nonsense can be true when somebody, always the same somebody, has first hurled an intentional unprovoked insult. But that's an integral article of faith in our air-headed pop culture, and this board has not been immune.

And as these other people chime in, Z3 feeds on it...the recognition and the sense that he has started it all, he's at the center.

I think some of you have noticed that, for more than a year, I have made a conscious and obvious effort to be nice to Z3, complimentary, often agreeing with some point he makes, even when it might be stretching things. Z3 is having none of that. He's not going to be tricked into being something other than what he is. So be it, I guess. They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And apparently we run into the same sort of problems in dealing with both ends of the horse.

But in all these years, nobody has seen fit to deep six the root cause, the instigator, of all these identical rifts in board harmony. Seems so simple to me. It's not about deleting posts, but ending the board access of intentionally disruptive people.

So lets see if, for the first time, this latest board gift from Mr. Z3 Big Daddy is somehow dealt with in a different way than all the other times. I.e., not at all or ineffectively. Other boards eject people with the obvious goal of intentional disruption, as soon as the track record becomes established; maybe earlier. But not this board. This guy has been given warnings by the previous moderator. His response was to proudly and contemptuously brag about it, in large red letters which he made a part of his signature on every post for awhile. It escapes me why anybody should be allowed to get away with that. Then the volunteer moderator, who had made even a mild but honest attempt to bring peace and harmony to the board, was quietly and unceremoniously terminated from that position, without the courtesy of being offered any explanation or even a comment. Yes guys, that's the true story of what happened. I suppose it has to do with judgement. Some things I have difficulty understanding, and when I tactfully ask for some sort of explanation, I get silence. That is not the way to run anything expected to work. Maturity and decisiveness count.

I think it is a tribute to the good judgement and good intentions of the rest of the people on this board that nobody else does this; or very rarely. That means a lot of people are using their heads for more than hat racks, and are having a good time here, by being good people and sharing their Thompson fun. Diversions like this one make the rest of the picture look even better. And of course the converse is true. But nothing works forever without maintenance, and this board needs some, beyond the software kind.

Hello Phil, Not arguing with you, however I think I said you had an agenda, at least I think that is what I said..... Don't know where all the rest comes from.... I guess it all boils down to.... Why did you make the post on a 4 year old thread? First post being ----> Jan 31 2004, 04:50 PM Which at this point doesn't even matter any more since you have gone way beyond my simple statement.

My unprovoked personal attack ----> "Because some people have an agenda.... Same as with certain types of ammo..."

Yours-------> Well they can read em for themselves.... As per your past, attack anyone who thinks enough challenge you or even point out the obivious.




So last post on this thread for me... Have at er boys....

Edited by Z3BigDaddy, 01 February 2008 - 03:20 PM.

[PhilOhio]

...Oh...can you explain to me again the part about "unprovoked insults"?...

Happy to, Lancer. Unless somebody here takes a shot at me, I take no shots at him. I hope that's not too vague for you.

Only one guy here has a long, long, long record of taking those first shots; seems to live for it. I would call that "unprovoked".

I would call a person like that "offensive"...and a whole lot of other things, but it is hardly necessary to describe the obvious.

[PhilOhio]

Z3: ...Hello Phil, Not arguing with you, however I think I said you had an agenda, at least I think that is what I said..... Don't know where all the rest comes from....

It comes from your offensive track record for some years now. No further explanation is required for anybody who has followed this board for more than a month or two and reads your posts. You do what you do because you choose to, and you seem to be driven. Or else it would not be happening, over and over.

Z3: I guess it all boils down to.... Why did you make the post on a 4 year old thread?

Try "two-year-old" subject.

But why should this be of any concern to you, or any of your business, other than as the spring board to launch the latest of your personal insults? Why would you raise the question, except with the intent to insult? In point of fact, I had the unexpected opportunity to closely examine, and work on, not one but two carbines of a type which had been discussed here at length. It seemed a good opportunity to describe both the pluses and minuses of a product everybody had shown interest in, and especially regarding a rather controversial company which is the sole manufacturer of the semiauto Thompson. Nothing strange or negatively motivated there. But from your twisted point of view, it looked like a chance to question or insult my motivation and steer the thread in a direction where you could sling yet more mud. As you did.

That's what it "boils down to"; same old crap.

Z3: Which at this point doesn't even matter any more since you have gone way beyond my simple statement.

There is nothing simple about your "simple statements". You intend to be insulting and you work hard at it. If not, you could demonstrate that by keeping your insulting mouth shut and focusing on your own business and posts, not mine.

Z3: So last post on this thread for me... Have at er boys....

Let's hope so. "Have at er boys..."? Has anybody noticed that the only time the peace and quiet and fun on the board breaks down is when you, Z3, have decided that it went on for too long, so you pitch another of your brown brats into the stew? What kind of a guy does that? I was waiting to see how long the board pleasantness would or could go on. You answered the question; not long, if you are still conscious and have a keyboard to punch.

So you could prove how wrong-minded and unfair I am, by morphing into a human being and cleaning up your act. Let's see just how that goes. And it makes no difference whether you pursue the old routine in some subtle or indirect way; same guy, same deal. We also are fully aware of your back channel E-mail efforts to do the same thing via your surrogates; they've told me about it. What a sick guy.

A few days ago you quipped to the effect that being on this machinegunbooks board meant "never having to say you're sorry". I thought that was one of the most accidentally telling indicators of your attitude here, and maybe elsewhere. But then, if a person chooses not to be intentionally obnoxious or offensive, he seldom has to say he's sorry, except when he makes an honest mistake.

So guys, this one ends like all the others, as I predicted...hopefully. Z3 gets his own crap rubbed in his face and then self righteously proclaims he is nobley saying no more on the subject. Hope, hope, hope.

For the record, next time you do it, Z3, same deal. I have zero tolerance of your special thing.

[Z3BigDaddy]

Z3: ...Hello Phil, Not arguing with you, however I think I said you had an agenda, at least I think that is what I said..... Don't know where all the rest comes from....

It comes from your offensive track record for some years now. No further explanation is required for anybody who has followed this board for more than a month or two and reads your posts. You do what you do because you choose to, and you seem to be driven. Or else it would not be happening, over and over.

Z3: I guess it all boils down to.... Why did you make the post on a 4 year old thread?

Try "two-year-old" subject.

But why should this be of any concern to you, or any of your business, other than as the spring board to launch the latest of your personal insults? Why would you raise the question, except with the intent to insult? In point of fact, I had the unexpected opportunity to closely examine, and work on, not one but two carbines of a type which had been discussed here at length. It seemed a good opportunity to describe both the pluses and minuses of a product everybody had shown interest in, and especially regarding a rather controversial company which is the sole manufacturer of the semiauto Thompson. Nothing strange or negatively motivated there. But from your twisted point of view, it looked like a chance to question or insult my motivation and steer the thread in a direction where you could sling yet more mud. As you did.

That's what it "boils down to"; same old crap.

Z3: Which at this point doesn't even matter any more since you have gone way beyond my simple statement.

There is nothing simple about your "simple statements". You intend to be insulting and you work hard at it. If not, you could demonstrate that by keeping your insulting mouth shut and focusing on your own business and posts, not mine.

Z3: So last post on this thread for me... Have at er boys....

Let's hope so. "Have at er boys..."? Has anybody noticed that the only time the peace and quiet and fun on the board breaks down is when you, Z3, have decided that it went on for too long, so you pitch another of your brown brats into the stew? What kind of a guy does that? I was waiting to see how long the board pleasantness would or could go on. You answered the question; not long, if you are still conscious and have a keyboard to punch.

So you could prove how wrong-minded and unfair I am, by morphing into a human being and cleaning up your act. Let's see just how that goes. And it makes no difference whether you pursue the old routine in some subtle or indirect way; same guy, same deal. We also are fully aware of your back channel E-mail efforts to do the same thing via your surrogates; they've told me about it. What a sick guy.

A few days ago you quipped to the effect that being on this machinegunbooks board meant "never having to say you're sorry". I thought that was one of the most accidentally telling indicators of your attitude here, and maybe elsewhere. But then, if a person chooses not to be intentionally obnoxious or offensive, he seldom has to say he's sorry, except when he makes an honest mistake.

So guys, this one ends like all the others, as I predicted...hopefully. Z3 gets his own crap rubbed in his face and then self righteously proclaims he is nobley saying no more on the subject. Hope, hope, hope.

For the record, next time you do it, Z3, same deal. I have zero tolerance of your special thing.