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Confusing Transfer Errors

barrel length form 4 transfer error

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#21 OCM

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:23 AM

I haven't had any problems, but my FFL said the CLEO had not listed his title on some forms and was sent back. On one of mine I have no title  ( Sheriff) but it does say Sheriff of such & such county, one just Sheriff.

One 12" barrel, one machine gun, one sub machine gun.  My 28N's history( have the paperwork & photos), goes back to 1935 with 12" bbl & 34" length and model is 1928.

I guess when I ever sell, get it corrected then if that's even an issue.

 

  

OCM


Edited by OCM, 17 April 2013 - 12:10 PM.

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#22 The Lone Ranger

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:58 AM

recon:

 

Something to bear in mind that will not read on the ever reliable internet is that the inventory printouts are not necessarily a true representative of the registration record.  Every time I have been contacted about a majorly out of whack inventory, there has been an issue with how the query was done.  For example - a friend who has been around the block in the business a similar length of time to you over the years has had things transferred to him by others using

 

1.  Licensee name

 

2.  Trade Name

 

3.  Both

 

If a query is made using the name it will get one result, trade name another, and both a third.  The only way to really do it and have it come as close as possible is to run at least 1&2 then cross reference them, weeding out the duplicates.  Add other levels of possibilities for a typo on data entry or a misspelling by the applicant (ie recon guns vs recon gun), changes in trade name, interstate moves, etc. 


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#23 TD.

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:15 AM

The Lone Ranger,

Thank you for the links to the information on that case. I enjoyed scanning through the documents. I am interested in one point: How did the ATF learn or find out about this scheme? Was it an internal review of documents, an informant, suspicions of an examiner, etc? I am sure this information came out in court.  Perhaps, the information is in the documents you cited, but I missed it. 

 

Thanks!


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#24 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:48 AM

It would not surprise me if one of the ones involved didn't brag about what he was doing and that brought the charges down on them.

 

 

The Lone Ranger,

Thank you for the links to the information on that case. I enjoyed scanning through the documents. I am interested in one point: How did the ATF learn or find out about this scheme? Was it an internal review of documents, an informant, suspicions of an examiner, etc? I am sure this information came out in court.  Perhaps, the information is in the documents you cited, but I missed it. 

 

Thanks!


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#25 First Sergeant

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:07 PM

I have a Colt Navy in transfer (8 1/2 months now) that lists Thompson as the manufacturer.  Not wanting to upset the apple cart I copied the info directly from the previous form 4; figuring I would "correct" it thur ATF after the form gets approived. I would like to see if indeed they corrected the form to read Colt as being the manufacturer.  This form 4 along with another for a 1918 BAR were approved February 24th (a Sunday?) but the paperwork has been MIA.  I am expecting my certified copies of the forms tomorrow so I can take possession.  I have a friend who is going thru the same thing with a Mac 10 that was approved less than 3 weeks after my forms and his paperwork is also no where to be found.  Any one else having this issue?


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#26 Sandman1957

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:18 PM

And I went on a roller coaster...  (Lone Ranger is accurate on that!)

 

Just kidding Lone Ranger.  Your posts are invaluable to the board.  However, something is squirrely, and I am glad that it is most likely newbies in training.  I am thrilled to have them.  Getting too old to outlast these 8 month transfers.  I get older, can buy more stuff, but it eats what little life I have left.

Any chance of getting the best correct wording pinned to the site so we do not all make the same mistake of simply copying the last form four, or using actual measurements on the NFA items we are registering?

Sandman1957


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#27 emmagee1917

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 10:34 AM

The form you get back is the only one they'll issue you . If you wait till it's back and then correct the info , it will never be correct on your form. If I have a form with errors ( and I had one with everything about the gun wrong except the serial number ) , I correct the errors on my form. I also send in a copy of the old form , with the errors circled in red , and a letter explaining the errors , both why they're wrong and referances to where they can go to prove it to themselves . It does not seem to slow the process at all ( when yours comes up , it's up ) and has not resulted in a kick back . They want the records to be correct , and I want the paperwork in my hand to match my gun.

Chris


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#28 darrylta

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 10:46 AM

Why spend the effort to correct the form and make waves and God forbid extra work for them, their just matching forms like robots.

You give them way to much credit. They don't care if it's correct,,just so it's same gun that's transferring.

I do mine to match exactly,, down to the dotted I & crossed T.

 

I know,,,I'm getting a lot jaded in my old age,

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#29 emmagee1917

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 11:07 AM

Because when a local LE looks at the form , maybe not sure exactly what he's looking at , I don't want any questions of " Why is your gun this when the form sez that ? " .

 

My one form with all the errors was a M9A1 Bazooka . Said made by US GOVT  but said GE right on it. Model number said M9 while M9A1 was stamped on it . Bbl length and OAL was several inches off . Bore was listed at 2.5 rather than 2.36 . Didn't feel like trying to explain all this while standing on the side of the road some dark and rainy night with an unknown LEO who might be just a tad nervous with me.

 

 Also , look at all the grips here about when the registry is wrong , but some are saying " let's keep it wrong ." Doesn't that seem strange ?

Chris


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#30 darrylta

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 11:27 AM

I've been checked lots of times by LEO's and range officers, they never whipped out a micrometer or tape measure.

As a matter of fact,,they didn't even verify the serial numbers. Just looked at the transfer form and my name and FFL

and stated "now that's a cool gun"

Most are just government drones,,nothing more and nice guys to boot not looking to make waves.

My most detailed checks were by ATF agents and they only compared serial numbers.

 

Most people are not as anal  / strange as we collectors are.

-Darryl

 

Somehow, I can't get the normal font back, which one is it?


Edited by RoscoeTurner, 19 April 2013 - 12:14 PM.

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#31 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:57 PM

I have been checked once, by a range officer, and all he said was that my paperwork was ten years out of date.  I thanked him for pointing that out and that I would make sure to get it updated. Wadda maroon.... 

I've been checked lots of times by LEO's and range officers, they never whipped out a micrometer or tape measure.

As a matter of fact,,they didn't even verify the serial numbers. Just looked at the transfer form and my name and FFL

and stated "now that's a cool gun"

Most are just government drones,,nothing more and nice guys to boot not looking to make waves.

My most detailed checks were by ATF agents and they only compared serial numbers.

 

Most people are not as anal  / strange as we collectors are.

-Darryl

 

Somehow, I can't get the normal font back, which one is it?


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#32 Sgt

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:47 PM

I don't see any discrepancies on my markings with previous forms.  The last owner listed the weapon as M-1.  I noticed that the A1 had been struck on the receiver.  I always assumed this was done by the military, so I hope that is not a concern.  When I give the barrel measurement, should I also include the threads?  Of course the barrel is exactly 10" when not counting the 1/2" threads.  However, previous forms list it as 10 1/2".  The ATF letter said not to use previous forms to determine length but measure directly from the weapon, so I'm a little confused.


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#33 emmagee1917

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:27 AM

The threads are on the bbl , right ? You measure from the face of the closed bolt to the tip of the bbl. If there is an easily removed comp , flash hider , muzzle brake on it , it is not counted. If it is welded on or blind pinned , it is considered a part of the bbl.

Chris


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#34 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:15 PM

High light the text using your mouse then click on the "I" on the tool bar, text should return to normal for you.

 

 

Somehow, I can't get the normal font back, which one is it?


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#35 OCM

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:32 PM

Chris- Good to know, mine are ACs and measure 12.0 " and that's what's listed on the forms.

 

Thanks !

The threads are on the bbl , right ? You measure from the face of the closed bolt to the tip of the bbl. If there is an easily removed comp , flash hider , muzzle brake on it , it is not counted. If it is welded on or blind pinned , it is considered a part of the bbl.

Chris


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#36 TINO

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:37 PM

I hope I didn't mess up a transfer on Form 4 by doing the right thing. The calibre said 223 on the old transfer paper,but the receiver said 55.6 ,so doing

the right thing I put both Calibre 55.6 / 233 on the new transfer paper, I just sent it in two weeks ago.

O well ,I'll just have to wait. 

 Tino


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#37 emmagee1917

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:01 AM

Things like that really don't matter much on some firearms . An AR15 / M16 lower with an asortment of uppers in different bbl lengths and calibers is one example . there is just not enough room to list all the possible combos and they can change over time. If you have an M1 carbine and both a folding and regular stock is another example. While .223 and 5.56 are different , to most they are the same ( although I think 55.6 may be much larger ) .

Chris


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#38 First Sergeant

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:58 PM

My saga continues.  After submitting, on April 2, a letter requesting copies of my approved Form 4's (approved on Feb. 24 and still MIA) I recieved a copy on one but not the other last Thursday  (mailed to me on the 12th). I included all the info needed i.e. both serial numbers, who purchased from, the approval date etc.in the letter.  They received the letter on April 4th.  I'll bet they tell me they need seperate letters?    

 

As far as changing anything, I'm with darrylta, I'm not changing a thing and would only request changes after it's in my name. I understand my copies wouldn't reflect the change from Thoimpson to Colt but I will have additional paperworkreflection the correction for any potential buyer (If I would ever want to sell it).  Stay tuned !!!  Chuck


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#39 21 smoker

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:53 AM

Remember when  a transfer form is submitted there are 2 copies...sometimes the error is on the one that remains with the NFA branch.I have also had forms rejected because I included "Inc." with my trade name...when I have previous forms with one or the other listed or both..and all 3 examples approved by the same examiner... :wacko:


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#40 The Lone Ranger

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:23 AM

TD:

 

Sorry for the delay, been on the road for a few days.  I will refrain from further commentary at the moment - there has been loads of internet commentary by people who lacked even a basic understanding of the case and no need for me to add to it at the moment.  If you know anyone or can possibly lay hands on a trasnscript, you would probably find some good reading.  Trick is, if the fed system works like the state it will be pricey for someone because while the information is public, the court reporter would have to be paid for the transcript.  Not sure if it applies federally or if you could get a copy from the court for free or printing cost, etc?  If my feeble mind can remember in the coming week I will try asking around.  If I get any useful info, will post on here.


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