49 replies to this topic

[M1tommygun]

Hawkeye, I forgot about the Bastogne scene in BoB with the P-47s. I agree with you about the ground chewing, with 8 X .50 cals, there was very little that could withstand a pounding from them. I read were pilots knocked out Kraut tanks with them alone. Of course, the last scene in SPR when the Mustang destroyes the Tiger, or was it Capt. Miller's .45 , was kind of hokey. Using Thunderbolts, or even British Typhoons would have been more interesting.

I am terrible with names, but I think I remember there was a Hellcat pilot who was credited with eight aerial kills at one time. Col. Neel Kearby's 6 CMH kills were in one engagement and all were fighters. There were many unsung excellent fighter pilots in the air durring that war. I wonder how Ted Williams would have done if he had been given the chance to fight instead of train durring WW2 (I know about Korea).

A.F., I did not think about those films. I have not had the chance to see any of them including any of the "Combat" series. I will have to check them out when I can find them.

Scott

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Hurridale,
You seem to have selective memory. Foss gets malaria in 1943 and then misses out on combat in all of 1944, and six or seven months of 1945? Surely the flight surgeon did not ground him for the duration of the war? How does that equate to Pappy being completely grounded in a POW camp? Also, I think other board members have chimed in on your low ball asessment on Colt values in 2004. I tell you what, why not list your gun with JC Deivne for the March 7th auction. There is still plenty of time. Do I get to keep any amount over $12K realized from the auction sale as a consultation fee?

M1,
Let us not forget the greatest tank buster of all time, even if he was a rabid Nazi, Stuka pilot Hans Rudel

[Hurridale]

Arthur,

Whatever. I've made my point, it's just that you're not listening.

These guys are both great pilots. Both are worthy of a flick of their own. You brought up the whole issue of comparing them and ranking them ("Foss? He was America's 9th greatest ace of WWII")

I just wish you'd get your history right.

You can give me $24,000 for my Colt today. I'll even pay the first transfer.

Enjoy!
DC

Edited by Hurridale, 21 February 2004 - 04:57 PM.

[John Jr]

There sure seems to be a LOT of misinformation on the net about WW2 pilots.

I will have to dig up my books, but Richard Bong was credited with 39 kills in reality. Most were made on Japanese aircraft without self sealing gas tanks.

American pilots were no where near the quality of German pilots simply because the Germans had to fight till the end of the war and the Americans had to go home after 1 tour.

Hartman, Rall, Barkhorn, ect... got most of thier kills on the eastern front against unskilled ignorant Russian pilots. Germans did not recieve any credit for kills on the ground, the US pilots however did. Credit for kills in the Luftwaffe were much harder to get than in the US Army Air Force.

Take care.

Jr

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

Richard Bong was credited with 39 kills in reality. Germans did not recieve any credit for kills on the ground, the US pilots however did. Credit for kills in the Luftwaffe were much harder to get than in the US Army Air Force.

John J,
You always post information with the caveat, "I will have to dig up my books for confirmation". Do you really think that you are the only board member who possesses books and refers to them for facts, but do so before posting opinions? I would think that it is your generation that is famous for acquiring their history exclusively from the net.

Bong is credited with 40 kills. The Germans did count planes shot on the ground whereas Americans did not. Just because Yeagar received credit for shooting a ME-262 when it was landing, is not the same as getting credit for static aircraft lined up on the field. If that were the case, B-17/B-24/B-26/A-20 crews would get credit for destroying stationary aircraft and count them as enemy aircraft shot down. They did not. And since most enemy aircraft loses were by bomber gunners, how did these crews forget to tack on planes destroyed on the ground? The fact that the Germans flew all through the war does not qualify them as better pilots simply because they fought till they died. Since so many of the best of the German pilots were killled in the Battle of Britian, and subsequent pilots had a short life expectancy in the air, their orders to continue flying through out the war does not translate into an abundance of fighter pilots seasoned by five years of air combat.

And what does the fact that the Japanese flew planes without self sealing gas tanks have to do with American pilots dexterity in the air to get the advantage over their enemy and employ accuracy in shooting them down?

[Fencer]

The Germans were horrible about confirming their kills. Read JG26 some time.
According to their records they shot down the whole RAF a couple times during
the Battle of Britain. Heck, the RAF shot down the whole Luftwaffe at least once
during the same time period.

Also, Hartman was shot down something like 10 or 11 times. Divide that into
his number of kills and his kills seem less impressive. He was rescued a few times from
behind enemy lines. He did however, take out several Mustangs defending Polesti
on one occasion.

Also, the Allies tended to return their best pilots to training establishments or
promote them to form new units. While the Axis tended to let their pilots fight
to the death. Witness the fall of Japanese Naval Aviation.

The Japanese really screwed themselves by their high standards for accepting aviation
candidates in the early war years. They should have been training massive amounts of
cadets but they did not.

Some Allied units did count strafing "kills" as "kills". The 4th FG did this. James Goodson
was known as the "King of the Strafers" before he was shot down and imprisoned while
strafing an airfield. That's how Gabreski got it, Godfrey got it, etc. Robert Tuck also was
shot down by AAA fire. All in all it was much more dangerous for the experienced fighter
pilot to put themselves into harms way by strafing than to fight it out at altitude.

[John Jr]

QUOTE

I would think that it is your generation that is famous for acquiring their history exclusively from the net.

What generation are you from mister hide behind a fake name?

QUOTE

And what does the fact that the Japanese flew planes without self sealing gas tanks have to do with American pilots dexterity in the air to get the advantage over their enemy and employ accuracy in shooting them down?

If Richard Bong were still alive, you could ask him, he is the one who said this: "Most were made on Japanese aircraft without self sealing gas tanks." Also somewhere in the 25-27 kill range on Bong was the controversial kill that most don't give him credit for. Thus the 39 instead of 40. Bong himself did not care about the numbers that much. Again, he said this.

QUOTE

Since so many of the best of the German pilots were killled in the Battle of Britian, and subsequent pilots had a short life expectancy in the air

35 German pilots are credited with over 150 kills. Rall lived after the war and spoke many times. Hartman did the same thing, some other did too.

QUOTE

The fact that the Germans flew all through the war does not qualify them as better pilots simply because they fought till they died.

Rall lived after the war and spoke many times. Hartman did the same thing, some other did too.

Also read page 200 of "Great Aircraft of WW2" Alfred Price and Mike Spick ISBN 0-07857-0669-5

Germans were infact MUCH better about confirming kills than the USAAF and the RAF.

You see, Arthur, turns out they were facts, not opinions like yours.

Have a great day!

LOVE YOUR SIG FENCER ( I played FA for years, I feel the same way)

Jr

[SgtMartin]

soooo....ahem...what ww2 movie would arthur and john like to see most....?

[hawksnest]

Why "Dueling Thompsons" of course, directed by Spielberg and starring Arthur and John. Arthur with a Colt and John with a West Hurley.

[John Jr]

I get 20million for acting in it!!!

Whoooppppeeeeeeeeeee!


Arthur and I have so much fun! We entertain the entire board! Too bad he wont join in for a chat one of these nights.

JR

[Waffen Und Bier]

Forget Hartman or Wittman. Spielberg and Hanks will never do anything to glorify German soldiers. I was really surprised they let that German commander give that "Band of Brothers" talk to his men in one of the last episodes of BOB.

It is impossible to rate the top pilots, because there were so many variables. It took huge amounts of balls and skill to do what any of those guys did regardless of branch of service or nation of origin or plane they flew.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

W&F,
The rating system they themselves used were the amount of kill flags on the side of their aircraft.

Of course South African John Pattle managed to shoot down Krauts (41 total) even after returning to the cockpit with a wooden leg.

[Fencer]

I would love to see a movie about the sea battles for Guadacanal on November 12/13 and 14/15 1942.

Digital technology should make it possible to do all the ships and the associated air battles.

I am envisioning something like BoB on HBO.. Multi episode. Heck lets go back to the invasion in August
and work our way forward.

[SgtMartin]

there is a new BoB series going into production(if not already) set in the pacific theater of operations. should bea good un to look out for.

[Waffen Und Bier]

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 22 2004, 09:17 PM)

The rating system they themselves used were the amount of kill flags on the side of their aircraft.

I should have been more clear. I know about the marking of their planes to indicate how many planes were shot down . I meant comparing US to German or US to Japanese (or British to German). Number of sorties, missions, who they flew against, what kind of planes they had, what kind of planes their adversaries had, target richness of environment, length of time flying - Germans flying for years, Americans flying rotations, etc., etc.

[Hurridale]

The whole pilot discussion comes down to having too many variables to be conclusive. By the time the individual pilot level is reached, the heirarchy and efficacy of the particular political/military/industrial/technical/philosophical matrix will always have more of an impact than individual skill.

Afterall, for all the skills of the Axis pilots, they lost. I think that's one fact no one disputes.

A higher order discussion has to do with individual motivation, not comparative ranking. I'm sure that would make a far better movie than just a kill count.

I think I can imagine the sense of desperation that the RAF pilots felt in August of 1940. But what about that sense of desperation combined with disillusionment felt by some Luftwaffe pilots in 1945? How did those pilots reconcile themselves with the good arguments to surrender, and the good arguments to fight on? THAT would make a good movie, me'thinks (the whole original point of this thread).

The Guadacanal story would be great. I'd also appreciate it from the Japanese side, like that Brando flick ("Young Lions"? Didn't it have Dean Martin in it?). Both sides are told. Two paths are developed that cross in one tragic point. Conflict: the essence of drama.

Now, don't get me wrong: my heart lies with the GI's of WWII. I'm not trying to say that presenting the Japanese point of view can justify or excuse their criminal actions. I'd just like to see them accurately portrayed (though we all know movies are almost always a poor venue for accuracy!).

For that matter, I'd also like to see the war against terrorism in Afghanistan accurately portrayed. And portrayed honestly and accurately from BOTH sides. I'd like to hear what really motivates those Al Queda guys.

Sorry, guys, but I really would like to hear them on film. Just before I get to see them blown up. I mean, sacrifice can be noble and all, but whether Imperial Japanese in '42, Nazi in '45, or Al Queda in '04, fact is, when you're wrong, you're wrong. Bad choice. Time for an attitude adjustment, American-style.

Boom!

DC

Edited by Hurridale, 24 February 2004 - 12:46 AM.

[Walter63a]

QUOTE (Hurridale @ Feb 24 2004, 12:39 AM)

The whole pilot discussion comes down to having too many variables to be conclusive.  By the time the individual pilot level is reached, the heirarchy and efficacy of the particular political/military/industrial/technical/philosophical matrix will always have more of an impact than individual skill. Afterall, for all the skills of the Axis pilots, they lost.  I think that's one fact no one disputes. A higher order discussion has to do with individual motivation, not comparative ranking.  I'm sure that would make a far better movie than just a kill count. I think I can imagine the sense of desperation that the RAF pilots felt in August of 1940.  But what about that sense of desperation combined with disillusionment felt by some Luftwaffe pilots in 1945?  How did those pilots reconcile themselves with the good arguments to surrender, and the good arguments to fight on?  THAT would make a good movie, me'thinks (the whole original point of this thread). The Guadacanal story would be great.  I'd also appreciate it from the Japanese side, like that Brando flick ("Young Lions"? Didn't it have Dean Martin in it?).  Both sides are told.  Two paths are developed that cross in one tragic point.  Conflict:  the essence of drama. Now, don't get me wrong:  my heart lies with the GI's of WWII.  I'm not trying to say that presenting the Japanese point of view can justify or excuse their criminal actions.  I'd just like to see them accurately portrayed (though we all know movies are almost always a poor venue for accuracy!). For that matter, I'd also like to see the war against terrorism in Afghanistan accurately portrayed.  And portrayed honestly and accurately from BOTH sides.  I'd like to hear what really motivates those Al Queda guys. Sorry, guys, but I really would like to hear them on film.  Just before I get to see them blown up.  I mean, sacrifice can be noble and all, but whether Imperial Japanese in '42, Nazi in '45, or Al Queda in '04, fact is, when you're wrong, you're wrong.  Bad choice.  Time for an attitude adjustment, American-style. Boom! DC

Hurridale, your last post is very balanced, thoughtful and worthy of consideration by Spielberg/ Hanks, and the rest of the closed-shop, liberal Hollywood establishment. I doubt they will, because they are too closed-minded to show the other side, the Axis side. Another thing to consider, about the German pilots, and whole Nazi military, is that there were three main reasons they lost: (1) Hitler constantly overrode his generals, often mistakenly, (2) because of Hitler's obsession with annihilating the Jews (in the death camps) too many valuable military resources and personnel were diverted from fighting the allies, and (3) the combined military forces of The United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, The United States of America, The U.S.S.R., the Free Polish, the Free French, and Canada, etc., including other smaller nations (economically and militarily), were arrayed against Germany. This, should in no way be misconstrued as an endorsement, on my part, of Nazi actions. However, it does say something about German fighting skill, tenacity, and resourcefulness, that they held out as long as they did, against the combined forces of the rest of the world, except Italy, Japan, and a few minor puppet regimes! Regards, Walter

P.S. That Teutonic fighting spirit and skill would be an interesting study on film. If I were making a film, I would focus on the German U-Boats, Stalingrad, the Battle for Berlin and the last stand at Nuremburg. The S.S. units defending Nuremburg, died, to a man, with no surrender nor desertions, even though they knew it was hopeless (Spring 1945)!

[M1tommygun]

The book by Guy Sager, 'The Forgotten Soldier', about his experiences fighting for the German army would make an excellent movie, or series.

I do not think Spielberg would make any movies that shows the Germans in any other kind of light except evil murders. I read when he was filming Saving Private Ryan, Brit WW2 German reenactors showed up for filming with proper period German haircuts and he made them shave their hair to look like skinheads. The reenactors were told if they wanted to be in the movie they would have to do it, otherwise they would be free to leave. I believe, in order to see the other side another director would be needed.

Scott

[Walter63a]

Scott, thanks, I'll have to check out The Forgotten Soldier, by Guy Sager. Another good book is, Berlin Dance of Death, by Helmut Altner, a young teenager, at the end of the war. He was among many young teenagers pressed into the defense of Berlin, against the Red Army, and an eyewitness. Regards, Walter

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Since the vast majority of the German population from 1935 to 1945, (military and civilian), were Hitler's willing executioners, it doesn't seem filmmakers made an oversight in not showing an abundance of sympathetic Krauts in movies......

Perhaps the most notable German soldier worthy of an honest portrayal in a film is Colonel Count Klaus Schenk Von Stauffenberg. His incredible nerve in getting that briefcase into Wolf's Lair is one of the bright lights in the entire Third Reich history. Stauffenberg was considered a traitor by Germans long after the war was over. So much for the image of the poor Aryan German citizen as hapless victim of National Socialism.