49 replies to this topic

[Walter63a]

Arthur, to deny that there were victims in every nation, in WWII, especially children, would be disingenuous and dishonest. That is what revisionist history is all about...slanting, obscuring, and otherwise tainting the truth. Thankfully, we have the primary sources, from the actual participants, like Mr. Altner, Mr. Sager, and many others. Regards, Walter

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Walter,
It is the revisionists who wish to excuse the German people of the time period of any culpability in the end result of National Socialism. Innocent children? There are no innocents in modern warfare. The German children were indoctrinated all their formal school lives to believe in Hitler and the glory in dying, or killing, for the Fatherland. To suggest that these Hitler Youths were impressed into service to defend Berlin is absurd. They were delighted at the prospect. They also were some of the most formidable and rabbid defenders of the city. But one can't be a cheerleader/aggressor at the beginning of a war and then claim victimhood when the end result is defeat instead of victory.

[DDAYJune6]

I would have to agree with Arhtur on this one.

[PATHFINDER]

How about a straight up remake of 'Thrity Seconds Over Tokyo'? Follow the actual book and factual accounts of the mission. No 'Gee we sure are sorry we droped that atomic bomb' crap. Show the Japs how they really were at the time. Show 'em decapitating our captured pilots in Tokyo square and the our 'allies' the Russians interning one of our crews. And this time have BOMBER pilots fly the mission!! The movie 'Pearl Harbor' did a great disservice to the men who flew with Dolittle by showing ex-Battle of Brittan fighter jocks as the only men capable of flying that mission. Any way. With the number of surviving examples of the B-25 Mitchel around AND todays special effects and CGI this would be a hell of a movie to remake. One of the sister ships of the Wasp is sitting in Pugget Sound right now. Watch the first version again and the over flights of Tokyo are unbelivable realisticl for the day. We could really make it sing today. Oh yeah, and get a crotchity lookin' old guy to play Dolittle, not that mincer Alec Baldwin. He had as much in common with Dolittle as I do with cheddar cheese!! We need to honor these heroes again and let the world know: No matter how hard you hit us, or think you have crippled us, there will be no place on earth that will hide from our wrath. No matter how remote or well protected you think you are. I now relinquish the soap box to the honorable gentalman from Texas.......

[Walter63a]

Arthur, there were many Germans who stood up to the Nazis, and paid with their lives, after excruciating torture, like being hung with piano wire, on meat hooks, guillotined etc.!! You mentioned Colonel Count Klaus Schenk Von Stauffenberg. There were many others, among them, those of the White Rose Society, Admiral Canaris, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, etc. Again, I'm not an apologist for the Nazis. I merely state, accurately, honestly, and without the slightest hesitation, that there were victims in every nation, during WWII, including Germany. Regards, Walter

[Hawkeye_Joe]

Pathfinder,

QUOTE

Watch the first version again and the over flights of Tokyo are unbelivable realisticl for the day. We could really make it sing today

One bit of trivia about "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo".. during filming there was a big oil refinery fire near LA so the Director sent the Bombers and camera planes to do flyovers. What you see on the film is the result...that was really a huge real life oil fire going.

[Walter63a]

Arthur, I do not believe in collective guilt. For example, when a drunken driver runs over granny in the street (killing her), only he should be charged with vehicular manslaughter, not the passengers, certainly not the guy tied up in the trunk, as he screams in protest and struggles to get free. There were many innocent Germans who opposed Hitler and the Nazis, and paid with their lives to help Jews and others, before and during WWII. If you do not believe this, simply check out, 'The Avenue and Garden of the Righteous Among the Nations', outside Yad Vashem, in Jerusalem. Many of the 'Righteous Gentiles', memorialized by the survivors of the Holocaust, were Germans. Regards, Walter

P.S. When I say 'innocent', I, merely, refer to those Germans who were not Nazis, and did not support the Nazi regime. Certainly, all of humanity is guilty of sin, as defined by the Holy Bible, and the Judeo-Christian tradition.

P.P.S. This is getting waaay toooo heavy! Lets go back to the things we all know and love that go pssst, bang, boom,etc., in rapid succession!!!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Walter,
Germany's population during WWII was about 60 million. If you subtract the 100,000 active resisters to the Third Reich and the 1 million passive resisters, that leaves 58,900,00 varying degrees of enthusiastic, or indifferent supporters. To reject collective guilt because it isn't an absolute 100% of the population is the kind of parsing of words only a Johnnie Cochrin could appreciate. Your drunk driver analogy is hardly coompeling. How do you compare a random act with the deliberate collective crimes of a state whose policy was well stipulated by it's leader before he ever became deified by that nation's people?

Who do you estimate were the symbolic people in the trunk in Germany? It could not be the Jews since the only car rides they were invited on had the exhaust piped into the trunk. To continue your analogy, I suppose if the people got back in the car after witnessing the deliberate act of the driver running down the pedestrian, and kept on driving with the drunk driver while he continued to run over people, would surely make them conspirators. Or do you think the passenger wer drunk also? Is that a defense? If you want to illustrate how the claim of innocent bystander, or prisoner of circumstance, doesn't wash, I give you Patty Hearst's conviction of bank robbery, even though she was a supposed hostage of her SLA captors.

[Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner]

Back to the subject at hand....

How about "Operation Iceberg"? The invasion of Okinawa involved the greatest armada of land and sea power in the history of the Pacific war. In terms of initial troops to be landed, firepower arrayed and tonnage to be used it was larger than Normandy. Nearly 1,600 ships, 183,000 actual infantry and marines. 250,000 americans overall, 12,000 combat aircraft, 40 aircraft carriers, 18 battleships, 150 destroyers. 60,000 troops landed the first day. But that was the good news, we ended up losing 12,000 killed (6,000 on Iwo Jima) 33,000 wounded or missing. 763 planes lost, 36 ships sunk, 368 hit. The japs paid though, 110,000 soldiers, 10 for every 1 american, 50 an hour, nearly 1 per minute for the duration of the 3 month battle and perhaps 100,000 civilians of which many were combatants. This was the heyday of the bonzai charge and the kamikaze attack.

I dont think there is any movie on the subject, certainly not one that does justice to the scale of the event. And for the most part it is a forgotten battle, overshadowed in text books (if mentioned at all) by Hiroshima and internment of Japanese Americans.

Rather than remake the Sands of Iwo, Iceberg would be an epic to behold though I doubt even Spielbefg could afford to make one this big and to it justice.

Check out Victor Davis Hanson's book Ripples of Battle were he discusses Okinawa and its suicide tactics and how they still effect us today. It also covers the Battel of Shilo and Delium, 424 BC (we all remember that one).

[Hurridale]

Roland,

Thanks for the redirection and valuable contribution. Maybe you got no head, but too often other folks here seem to lose theirs...

Regards,
DC