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#1 John Jr

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 12:37 AM

http://www.sturmgewe....cgi?read=41252

Text of ad:

NFA Market Board

WTS Geniune COLT 1921/28 OVERSTAMP PARTS KIT!

Posted By: jim (dialup-67.75.202.199.Dial1.Seattle.Level3.net)
Date: 2/24/04 23:28

I am selling a genuine Colt 1921/1928 overstamped Thompson submachine gun as a parts kit. The gun is in very good to excellent condition. Everything is original, including the blued finish, very nice wood. Barrel is not bulged or "ringed". No drum or stick magazines are included. If you are fortunate enough to own a Colt '21 or '28 and with the values of these guns at over $20,000 you definetely don't want to use WWII Savage and Auto-Ordnance replacement parts. I am waiting for BATF to give me the specs on the destruction procedure of the reciever. $6,000.00

E-mail me and I'll send you to a site with pictures.


Sounds like we have an illegal MG here. Somebody is going to be a prison bitch!!!

Jr
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#2 John Jr

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 02:03 AM

If he is retiring a police gun, he should state this clearly. This would lend to his credibility. The way this is offered, it sounds like an "attic gun."

Could be the ATF trying to entrap here too; waiting for the email that says "Dont destroy the Reciever, call me first" type of thing. I guess I am just paranoid.

Jr


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#3 gijive

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 07:26 AM

That's probably the same gun that Bob posted pictures of a month or so ago. The pictures were pulled due the firestorm it created on the list.
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#4 Bob

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 10:09 AM

Yep, all the know-it-alls' flinging BS they know nothing about.

This gun is one that was never registered in 1934 or 1968 and is in a police inventory. It was subsequently form 10'ed and can go to another police/govt ent. It cannot be sent to a C2 for repair or cutting. Per ATFE form 10 guns cannot be sent out on a letter or form 5. This gun is most likley going to the local muffler shop to be destroyed with a torch. One less Colt in the world and sure to make all the rest a little more valuable.

Oh, and thanks for all the help on getting this gun to a museum or other qualified recipient. Coming up more Colts have been found and will meet the same fate. Call it greed, departments have found the guns they can't get rid of are now worth $$$ as parts.
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#5 Ron Mills

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 10:11 AM

I would think the 1st thing you do if you "find" a gun like that is deep-6 the receiver or torch the receiver into itty bitty pieces! That's bizarre. He does sound knowledgeable, but I wouldn't trust it. I agree with J Jr.
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#6 Tman

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 11:18 AM

Now fellas, do you really think that ATF would waste their time doing something like this? I would get laughed out of the US Attorneys office and jammed up by my boss if I tried to bring something like this for prosecution. We have lots of felonious individuals out there carrying Ravens or Brycos to play with.
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#7 Walter63a

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 12:27 PM

Parts is parts! ohmy.gif blink.gif cool.gif Too bad! Stupid Laws!!! ph34r.gif
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#8 Bob

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:27 PM

hardrede, my agenda was to have a museum contact. We are just caretakers of historical artifacts and must preserve them at all costs for future generations.

Some poeple think Im short when I'm on a roll, for that oh well

I really don't need lessons on law or opinions unless those opinions are helpful in the end result. If you check with the ATFE you will find there are alternative methods of destruction, for different circumstances. Importing scrap would be one of the most dramatic.

I'm with Tman, and in the same biz, my interest is more with deterring violent criminal action. Taking the weapons away from people that should not be in control of deadly instruments is our SOP.

Collecting contrband is not only a bean, but also a great way to 1. Get money for the department when properly disposed of. 2. Get the historical item into a museum when applicable.

Parts, by the way are contraband here if they are intended to be used in a SBR,SBS or MG unless you know the secret hand shake, if you get my drift.

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#9 Bob

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 04:12 PM

Not from my department, no such luck (I would not be involved in cutting a historical artifact). This is back east!

And, by the way, the offers are now over $4000.00 for the torched parts. Well see how it goes and how high Colt parts and wood set have become.
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#10 TD.

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 06:45 PM

Can a Form 10 registered firearm be approved for export (or transfer) out of the United States?
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#11 TD.

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 09:17 PM

Thanks Hardrede

Bob - would the police department give up the receiver for free if it were approved by ATFE for export? TMAN may be able to help with the paperwork. His presence would also ensure all the laws were being followed. TMAN, could this be done?

Does any board member know anyone not in the United States that could and would take legal possession of this Colt receiver?

How about Murray in New Zealand? He would certainly make sure this old Colt receiver found a good home. Anyone know Murray well enough to ask him if it is possible and if he would be interested?

If any of this were possible, I would anticipate a small cost for shipping fees. I bet most board members would chip in a buck or two. Other expenses may involve someone with an export license and someone equipped to remove the barrel - but these services could be donated. We may have board members who could provide these services.

I think it would be great to save a Thompson.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

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#12 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 09:38 PM

He might be interested in the complete weapon for under $7000, considering what he pays for Colt TSMG's in New Zealand.
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#13 TD.

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 10:38 PM

Thanks Arthur, PhilOhio and Hardrede. If we need an exporter, it looks like that problem is solved.

It seems like we have a possible solution. I too like the idea of exporting the complete gun. We will have to wait and see what Bob has to say about this. I have seen Murray's at home Thompson pictures. It looks like a museum to me! Comments from TMAN would be very helpful and hopefully, Murray will be interested and more importantly, legally able to complete the transaction (complete gun or receiver).

Any other thoughts on saving this one old piece of American history?

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#14 Bob

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 11:41 PM

Hey guys it's not up to me. If you look back at my posts you will see greed is the key factor on getting these guns out of the PD's in the first place.

Give it away for "free", are you out of your vulcan mind? laugh.gif

This particular weapon has been snagged by a dealer that will make a profit on it one way or another. If someone was to make an offer on the complete gun, it would have to be shipped directly from the PD to the end user. We were hoping someone had a museum with a budget for something like this.

Don't think you could talk the PD into...becoming a exporter.

Remember this is a form 10 gun, it cannot be transfered to a dealer for export. Heck, a class II can't even bring one into his shop for repair on a letter or form 5 ATFE won't approve the transfer not even for distruction.
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#15 TD.

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 07:40 AM

Hi Bob,
If you will look back at my post you will see that I only mentioned giving up the receiver for free. Others mentioned exporting the entire gun after a price of approximately $7,000.00 was paid. Either method would not cause the Police Department or any dealer involved to lose a dime - and may save a Thompson.

It appears the initial problem is whether or not a Form 10 firearm can be exported outside the United States. If this is not possible, then nothing else really matters. You state export is not an option, Hardrede states export can be done. I really don't know. That is why I suggested TMAN may have the inside scoop if this can be done - and know (or can find out) what is involved with this type of transfer. I am betting TMAN will post a response within a few days. He seems to go out of his way to preserve historic firearms. Others on the board may have also have an answer.

If this first hurdle (export) can be overcome, then it is only a matter of finding someone who can legally accept transfer outside the United States. And this transfer can be one valueless Form 10 receiver or one complete Colt Thompson after an agreed on up front price is paid.

I agree many other minor details would have to be addressed but the export issue is the major question that must be answered first.
Thanks,

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#16 Bob

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 10:06 AM

We are getting a little off track here.

What we needed is a contact with a museum within the US. We don't need to export anymore of our historical artifacts out of the country just to save them. I think the numbers are around 120,000 went to Russia that can't come home.

Sorry Murray don't mean to offend.

If a museum offered a trade or cash that would be the best, but as we speak the deal might be done and our baby down at Midas Muffler.

You guys might want to keep your heads up on this issue, cause it will come up again. There are lots of Thompsons still in PD inventories across the nation, many never registered.
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#17 Tman

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 11:20 AM

OK, here's what I found. Under Part 479.114, it talks about exportation of NFA weapons. The person or entity that desires to export the weapon must fill out and submit ATF F 9. This person or entity must also be licensed by Dept. of State as an exporter under the Arms Export Control Act. I know this applies to people who are in the business of exporting. I will ask around if the same must be followed by an individual or PD for a one time deal. This can be found on pg. 89-90 in the 2000 version of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P 5300.4).

My experience with museums is that most run on a shoestring budget and would not be able to fork out 7K for one artifact unless that artifact had a significant historical background.
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#18 Fencer

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 12:32 PM

My wife is Chief Curator at a museum. The curator is in charge of the collection and makes
the decisions to acquire items for the museum. I talked to her about this gun. Having been
around the museum field for the last 10 years I can tell you that Tman is 100% correct.
Most museums do not have the cash on hand for purchasing large quantities of items.
They rely on donations of artifacts. This is particually true of historical museums. Art
museums have it alot better. They tend to get more money donated, and are thereby
more likely able to purchase items.

If a thompson could be traced to a particular individual or police department that is historically
correct for a state, then the state's museum and/or historical society would me more likely to
be interested in acquiring it. State musems also have a higher purchasing budget and would be
more likely to buy the thompson. Trades are not possible due to the rules that museums
have to follow on removing items from their collections. This is called deaccession and has many
complicated requirements put in place to ensure that the museum does not get things then sell
them for a profit.

My wife's museum does not collect the time period of 1920s-1940, yet. They might be interested
in the near future though.

If anyone hears of any Thompson that might have historical ties to Indiana, and the party is
interested in donating the item or selling at a "reasonable" cost to a museum, please let me know.
I will do everything possible to aid in seeing that this is accomplished.

Cheers,
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#19 21 smoker

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 01:28 PM

Tman,...
you hit the nail on the head...most museums don`t have the funds to buy much. They, instead rely on donations,artifact loans and volunteers etc. to exist...I know this first hand from my involvement with the NASLEEM Museum in Dunedin,FL....high quality on a low budget. Personally I would prefer to use 28 parts in my 21 anyway,except for PKs actuator and recoil assy...so here`s one Colt owner that won`t be in the market for this kit.my .02,out. wink.gif
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#20 jim

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 06:51 PM

The above mentioned Thompson has sold for the price listed, end of discussion.
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