C&R license..are there any reasons not to get one?

[timkel]

I have the forms all filled out. I know there are several advantages but any downside?

Edited September 9, 2014 by timkel

[Chief762]

You can't use a C&R to run a gun related business, but other than that I can't think of any reasons not to become a licensee.

[Sandman1957]

Yes, there are some down sides depending on your point of view.

 

1. C&Rs cannot be used with Trusts. If this is why you want one, it will not work. A Trust cannot have a C&R in order to buy NFA C&R eligible items across state lines.

-- You as an idividual can have a C&R and purchase eligible C&R's across state lines, including NFA items with a Form 4. Your Trust, and your C&R cannot work together, each stands on its own.

 

2. You have to maintain a bound book of ALL your C&R purchases and dispositions from that day forth, until expiration of you license. You do not have to add C&R items already owned, however when you sell them, even though not aquired with the C&R, they must be recorded in the bound book. For clarity this means any C&R you get after licensed is put in the book, and not just those that you actually use a C&R in the transaction.

--Examples, (A). You inherit your family's old 22s, shotguns etc and they are all over 50 years old. They go into the book.

(. Your Dad gave you a 22 when you were a Kid. You have had it your whole life, now you want to give it to your brother so your nephew can enjoy the same 22 you and your brother used growing up. You have to record this dispostion in your bound book, including all the details, ie your Brothers name, Driver's license number etc, (unless your nephew is over 18).

SOME FOLKS DO NOT WANT THAT INFO RECORDED.

 

I have zero issues with it, and have enjoyed having C&R licenses on and off since 1986 or so. A gap here and there due to overseas assignments.

If you abhor paperwork, and do not want that type of info recorded, then a C&R is not for you.

 

3. Your books are able to be audited at anytime by the BAFTE. If this is an issue for you, then C&Rs may not be for you.

 

My personal point of view: I have used my C&R and have picked up many good items that I would not have purchased without it. It has saved me alot of money by not having to go through dealers on many occasions. I keep copies in my car and in my backpack (man purse, goes on all my trips). I highly recommend it to all.

[timkel]

Thats just the kind of information I was seeking. I does give me some things to consider. I don't like keeping records. But I do like dealing with directly with wholesalers.

Thanks for the info.

[wwiifirearms]

One note on records. Unlike a dealer FFL you are not required to hand over your records when you give up your license. You can destroy them after you give up the license if you choose.

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

my understanding is you only log stuff in your bound book that you use the license to buy or sell. Guns you have already or guns you buy not using the c&r do not have to be logged. This was told to a friend who had to actually have a meeting with an ATF agent in ny to actually get his collectors license. I looked through my books but cant find anything on it either way. I will try to find more out about it.

[Paladin601]

Roland that is my understanding as well.

[The Lone Ranger]

Depends on what you mean by not using your license - if you are referring to non-C&R firearms, that is correct.

 

Some licensees make the mistake of thinking there is such a thing as "off book acquisitions" - that if they make a purchase using a 4473 and do not supply a copy of their license to the transferee it is not subject to record keeping. There is no allowance for this. Once you obtain a license, there is no such animal as "personal firearms" until after they are entered into your records, or in the case of a collector's license they are all personal firearms that are logged. If the license is attached to a legal entity (partnership, LLC, corporation) then you can buy "personal" guns all day long using a 4473.

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

I will have to look more into this. Thanks Edited November 20, 2014 by Roland the Thompsongunner

[james m]

The only C&R firearms I log are the ones I've bought or sold since I've had my license. This includes any that I had prior to having a license but have subsequently sold. If they aren't sold and I owned them prior to this time they are NOT logged in my records book. That's my understanding of how this is to be done. Please correct me if I am in error here.

The REAL oddity here in Arizona is I can legally privately purchase a non-C&R firearm with no paperwork whatsoever. The only legal requirement is that both the buyer and seller be Arizona residents. Since these are non-C&R there's no record of these purchases anywhere.

Jim

Edited November 20, 2014 by james m

[buzz]

Ok, just to be clear

 

 

Suppose I have a C&R license and I buy the following:

 

1. A 1918 S&W revolver from a gun shop as a regular purchase, NOT using my C&R license

 

2. A 1918 S&W revolver from an out of state private seller using my C&R license

 

3. A 2014 S&W revolver from a gun shop

 

 

Per my understanding, gun #2 has to be entered into my bound book

 

Why would gun #1 and #3 go into the bound book?

[RoscoeTurner]

The REAL oddity here in Arizona is I can legally privately purchase a non-C&R firearm with no paperwork whatsoever. The only legal requirement is that both the buyer and seller be Arizona residents.

Nothing odd about that at all, it is that way in the majority of states.

[The Lone Ranger]

Suppose I have a C&R license and I buy the following:

 

1. A 1918 S&W revolver from a gun shop as a regular purchase, NOT using my C&R license

 

2. A 1918 S&W revolver from an out of state private seller using my C&R license

 

3. A 2014 S&W revolver from a gun shop

 

 

Per my understanding, gun #2 has to be entered into my bound book

 

Why would gun #1 and #3 go into the bound book?

#3 does not go in your book - it is outside the purview of your license. 1&2 go in your book - they are within the purview of your license.

 

Start with 27 CFR 478.125(f)..... note it says a licensed collector will record "each" (each = every) acquisition or disposition. There is no mention of being limited to interstate acquisitions or exemptions for acquisitions from nonlicensee who reside in the same state as you. There is no requirement to record anything acquired prior to the license [125(e) - dealers - contains language about an initial inventory which is not present in 125(f)], however, any curio or relic firearm you dispose of should be recorded regardless of acquisition date. Once you obtain the license, you do not have the option of "delicensing" yourself for some transactions while opting to be licensed for others. You either hold the license or do not. Once licensed, the only way you return to nonlicensee status is expiration, surrender, or revocation.

 

For more fun and frolic in the book which continues to build on this, check out 478.94. Any time you obtain a firearm from another licensee, you are supposed to furnish a certified copy as that person is supposed to be recording the FFL# of the person to whom the firearm is transferred.

 

Then head over to 28 CFR 25.6 which covers FFL access to NICS. It is limited to only proposed firearm transfers when required by the Brady Act. The Brady Act [18 USC 922(t)] says an FFL does a NICS check on transfers to nonlicensees - not to licensees who opt to withold their licensed status from the dealer.

 

It's like driving while suspended - easy report to write:

 

Were you driving a vehicle: Yes / Was your license suspended: Yes

 

Extrapolation:

 

Did you acquire or dispose of a curio or relic firearm: Yes / Did you hold a type 03 FFL: Yes

 

The attached newsletter may help somewhat. It is written for dealers so some aspects do not apply but it conveys the same principle of when you are licensed, you are licensed full time.

ffl-newsletter-2006-03.pdf

[timkel]

Sounds like the regs are written to trip you up.

 

"Show me a man. I'll show you a criminal" old russian spy chief

[The Lone Ranger]

Not this group of regulations - they are all consistent. If you can accept that a licensee is a licensee and a nonlicensee is a nonlicensee, it's easy. If you insert unwritten exemptions and options, it gets tricky. IMO it's an example of "be careful what you wish for" because it seems reasonable that if a license holder can "unlicense" himself on a whim, so can the government and with well chosen timing that could get very costly.