J.c. Devine Auction
Posted 08 March 2004 - 12:16 AM
It sounds like some of the phone bidders just slipped up. Far more likely than they would want to sell a gun for less money.
Posted 08 March 2004 - 08:05 AM
Are these results posted anywhere? Rather than word of mouth?
And - there is a good chance of some kind of deliberate manipulation of the bidders to get more money - and maybe it backfired on Devine!
When the real answers come in, please update all of us!
Posted 08 March 2004 - 10:32 AM
Posted 08 March 2004 - 10:49 AM
Your self-deleted comments should be posted here since it is a first hand account of how Devine treats the public who dare question his practises. Why put it on a need to know basis?
This is certainly a new wrinkle for auctions were the auctioneer attempts to get the least amount of money for items up for bid. Judging the condition of some of the Thompson's on consignment for bidding, it appears that Devine's standards for admission are rather low. This may be why sellers are attracted to Devine's overly optimistic catalog appraisals regarding condition and value.
How is it that Robert Silvers believes he was successful in three bids, while several other phone bidders couldn't get to first base on any item, even if their bids were higher?
According to Devine's catalog, a potential bidder would first have to register with Devine by providing bank accounts, or credit card information. Other than being at the auction in person, or bidding over the phone, one could submit bids earlier through snail mail, fax or email. If there is a written record of these bids, and there is, and they exceeded the bids accepted by the auctioner, Devine is faced with an interesting dilema.
But as far as more "reasonable" prices being realized at this latest Devine auction, the NAC gun, chrome gun, and the way over exaggerated 95% 1921A gun, were never going to pull down record prices anyway. If Devine allowed the owners of the Navy Colt's to pull their guns from a "non reserve" auction because they didn't like the low opening bids, then the next auction Devine will be associated with will be his own estate sale.
Posted 08 March 2004 - 12:05 PM
P.S. I am not sure about illegalities, but if there is a paper trail, one might wish to have an attorney look into the matter.
Posted 08 March 2004 - 12:50 PM
Geez. They just did not shout or raise their hand fast enough. I am telling you -- if you were on the phone with them you would understand.
I explained why I did not know what I paid -- it is because my bidder said to me "Ok, that gun went for $X,XXX" so I assumed someone else won it. She should have said "You got that gun for $X,XXX."
If she had said that, I would have committed it to memory. Once I found out it was me who bought them, she had to quickly go to bid for someone else, so I had no time to ask for a recap.
Edited by rsilvers, 08 March 2004 - 12:50 PM.
Posted 08 March 2004 - 01:18 PM
Posted 08 March 2004 - 02:42 PM
To me, it's not in the realm of reaonsonableness for this auction to have been conducted as described unless something was very seriously amiss.
Posted 08 March 2004 - 05:07 PM
Posted 08 March 2004 - 05:54 PM
|QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 8 2004, 11:52 AM)|
| If Devine sold one gun for a price lower than a bid which he had, that is fraud. The seller is the victim, under law of agency. And the high bidder is also the victim, having been cheated out of the item. Devine might claim it was the fault of some careless employee manning a telephone. That is his responsibility, probably actionable. Something really stinks here.|
Those are some pretty strong statements you're making. In order for there to be fraud there has to be a second party involved and since it is one of our board members...... I did do auctioneering school but am not a lawyer, so I will just give personal opinions... Unless the auctioneer has a shill bidding and ends the bidding prematurely to his benefit, as in sell it higher later, there is no fraud. An auctioneer can in fact bid on items for himself, this is common. It is better if it is announced before bidding starts, but not mandatory. In this case though I see no benefit to the auctioneer as they are paid a percentage on gross, and trust me they want to maximize their profits. Looks like a missed bid to me... Which is crappy for the loser but is not a crime....
Posted 08 March 2004 - 05:54 PM
NOW that does not mean I think J.C. Devine gets a get out of jail card on the issues raised here for free BUT this is their disclaimer.
The bigger issue for them is getting potential sellers and buyers of Thompsons in the future since I am going to bet we are the only group going over the details like this.
I understand that J. C. Devine, Inc. will execute my bids as a convenience and will not be held responsible for any
errors or failure to execute bids.
Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:53 PM
#73, 1513. $17000.
#75, 1978. $15000.
#76, NAC5. $10000.
plus 15% commission.
Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:55 PM
Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:58 PM
Wow! For the $48,250 you spent, you could have bought 2 really nice original all Colt TSMG's.
Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:01 PM
|QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 9 2004, 12:46 PM)|
There are many different kinds of wrongdoing in which an auctioneer or broker might engage. You are addressing only one narrow category, and you may be right about that. It does not relate to some of the other issues raised by bidders here, nor the things which I found most disturbing. Long ago, I spent a few years in the real estate business, licensed in the District of Columbia and Maryland. I had to learn quite a lot about the law of agency, what I could and could not do, and what was definitely punishable and why. I had to periodically take written tests to prove that I understood all this, to remain certified to represent sellers in multimillion dollar transactions. This is a major hot potato among brokers and auctioneers. It is the one thing which most frequently is their undoing. I'm not blowing smoke when I say something is amiss here. And I do not accept all the rationalizations for looking the other way. But that is the business of those of you who were directly involved.
Please don't try to interpolate realty law with rules of auctioneering. I'm in insurance and know all about E&O, and fiduciary responsibility involved. It many states auctioneering is totally unregulated no licenses etc.. Auctioneering by it's nature is a pretty freewheeling proposition... When your contract with someone is based on the raising of the hand, or a scratch of the nose, you really can't expect it to be and exact science. I think you're reading far to much into this but just like you this is only mho.....
Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:21 PM
I needed something to jumpstart my collection and get the pressure of of having nothing. Now if you know someone who will sell me their best Thompson for $24,000, instead of their worst, then I am interested in seeing it. But now I can relax and whenever I see a better one I will consider it.
I try not to rag on other people guns. When I see an HK conversion without a paddle mag release, or a poor restamp, or missing a 3-lug barrel -- I take note of it and silenty poo-poo it, but I don't write them and tell them they gun stinks.
Edited by rsilvers, 09 March 2004 - 02:45 PM.
Posted 09 March 2004 - 03:05 PM
|I needed something to jumpstart my collection and get the pressure of of having nothing.|
But you do seem content to acquire your knowledge about specific types of Class III weapons after you have already purchased them. Who, or what, is the source for all this pressure on you to compile as many NFA weapons, regardles of quality, as possible in the shortest amount of time?
|Now if you know someone who will sell me their best Thompson for $24,000, instead of their worst, then I am interested in seeing it.|
Did you see the Devine guns you bid on in person sometime prior to the auction?
Posted 09 March 2004 - 03:17 PM
I tried to go see them, but they had stopped the viewing period. So no. I will see them tomorrow though.
I try for quality but if I have no example of that specific model of gun I am less picky because I want to get one in. Since I have some now, I will suddenly get picky. I turned down an offer today of an M1A because someone had cut it for a drum, added a vertical foregrip, and a ribbed barrel. Imagine that. So you can see, there are some guns I would never consider.
Edited by rsilvers, 09 March 2004 - 03:28 PM.
Posted 09 March 2004 - 03:39 PM
Posted 09 March 2004 - 03:43 PM