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J.c. Devine Auction


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#41 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 05:41 PM

"Reading too much into this? I think not. Just my humble opinion? No, I don't join you in saying that."

I'm glad someone has all the facts, and understands the world of litigation.... I guess it's the American way now..... Litigation and Thompson Greed what a great combo.... Just like love and marriage, guess they go together... Add another person to my "do not deal with" list.....
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#42 snipershot1944

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 07:13 PM

Hey, give the guy a break. If he's happy with the three guns he bought, that's his business, not anyone else's. At least this guy puts his dollars where his mouth is.

Personally, I would have been very happy to won 1513 for that price. But what do I know, I'm the new guy.

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#43 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 08:08 PM

Here, here, sniper!!! You got that right! Everyone here bitches about high prices, but I never see anyone offering "cheap" guns to keep the prices down... Well except when ron finally cracks open the two cases of drums for $350.00 a pop he promised. wink.gif Same with people bitching about ebaY™ then putting on their own ebaY™ auctions at incredible prices.... Doesn't always make sense does it.... Just a leetle bit of hypocrisy floating around here...
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#44 John Jr

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 10:56 PM

I looked over the colt guns that RSilvers purchased.

I think he did just fine. Remember Arthur, that not everyone is a colt whore and is out to buy a 98% colt Thompson to stare at. Being the kind of collector that you are (or I assume you are) does not give you the right to condecend to someone just because they have different tastes in guns than you do. This man now owns 3 colt Thompsons.

The NAC is a colt. He probably does not care if Geo. Nurmrich or whoever put this gun together outside of the colt factory years later. This may not matter to him. It wouldn't matter to me.

To each his own, and congrats Ron Silvers on your purchases. Welcome to the Thompson community and join our chat live talk sessions on Sunday nights.

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#45 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 11:16 PM

John J,
RS has been buying Class III weapons at a feverish pace for several months now. It seems he has some serious cash to spend on them, and therefore not confined to entry level type examples. It has nothing to do with being a "Colt whore" as your persiflage suggests, but rather everything to do with gnomic choices.

Since when have you ever condoned paying $19,500 for a Colt TSMG anyway? Or is this an Epiphany on your part? And were you not always critical of the Devine auction, their guns, and anyone who takes part in it?

As far as that NAC 5 gun, take a good look at the font on the word "Colt's" on the receiver. That's a new one on me.

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#46 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 11:40 PM

Just making observations on your post... Don't understand the crying spitball thing... but hey what ever.... Please enlighten me on anything I misconstrued.....
And BTW, why did you assume I was talking of you on the trust thing? You sure I didn't mean Devine? Just curious....

BTW since you are a fellow Auto Mag'r thought you might want to look at one of "my" auctions.... I can't even sell garbage cheap...ebaY™ garbarge....
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#47 rsilvers

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 11:43 PM

Yes, three. I called them today and verified. Every 'Colt' 1921a they had (I despise compensators because they are 'loudeners' -- the opposite of 'silencers').

The NAC5 might become my everyday shooter providing it shoots well (to the extent that I find time to fire any specific gun).

Detailed pics tomorrow. I am going into their vault tomorrow.
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#48 John Jr

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 11:49 PM

Arthur,

You are right (did I just type that?) about the JC Devine Auction and my opinions about these auctions.

http://www.machinegu...=1341&hl=devine

And when you find out what happened to the phone bidders and the other things that happened later, you will see why I posted that. Not to mention that I posted in that thread LONG before the auction ever went off.

You are a colt snob (whore is a bit strong, I know) and everyone knows that. I have respect for that, but you have no respect for anything other than colt and thats what I was talking about.

Join our live voice chats on Sunday nights and you will learn more.

Jr

BTW during the first 2 weeks in April there will be no chat sessions as I will be hunting the elusive Eastern Wild Turkey here in Arkansas. The longbeards are calling!
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#49 AZDoug

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 01:51 AM

The roll stamp, and COLT font on the NAC 5 photo appear to be quite genuine, based on some detailed photo comparison I did.

Unfortunately, using white stick to highlight font, can distort it.

Years ago, in the early 1970's, I belonged to a Corvette club. We would have meetings, and sit around and drink beer, and swap parts and generally have fun with our cars making them run great, look nice, and have informal meets.

Then the collectors got involved as the prices went up---the people that never really worked on their cars, they just had the money to buy them and buy the best restoration that was already done by somebody else--- and the fun went out of it, as one of them would come up to your vintage Corvette and start ragging that the rearview mirror was from a 1962 car and that you had the gall to put that 1962 mirror on your 1961 car, and his 1961 car had all the correct parts, and even an NCRS cert of originality, blah, blah, blah.... I and the original members quit the clubs soon after, and I decided the Hot Rod crowd was where I belonged.

Doug
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#50 AZDoug

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 12:38 PM

I have been trying to figure out how to modify my will so that my TSMG's get sold at an affordable price to someone who WANTS them, not someone interested in making a quick profit, or adding to an existing collection.

Someone that really wants one, but can't afford it.

BTW, I hope this situation doesn't arise for another 40 years or so. :-)

Doug
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#51 kyle

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 10 2004, 12:07 PM)
The common thread here is that there are social or economic changes going on in our country that worry me a lot.  More and more cash seems to be accumulating in fewer and fewer hands.  This is steadily widening the gap between the haves and have nots.

I don't know if it will happen in my lifetime (next 30 yers), but I do believe a social revolution where the "have nots" take what they choose from the "haves" is inevitable. The scene from Dr. Zhivago where the rich family has their home seized and occupied "for the good of the people" will become, sometime in the near future, more than just a movie plot.

This country was founded and flourished under a system where a man was responsible for his own success. I'm not a social historian, but it seems to me that the availablilty of vast amounts of cheap furtile land fueled the agrarian phase of our growth. Then you had the availability of cheap energy and manpower which fueled the industrial revolution and the growth of manufacturing. As people had more money, they wanted more things. It was a self-feeding cycle where wealth created demand which created more industrial capacity which created additional wealth and so on and so on. Manufacturing is what created the "Middle Class".

As manufacturing eroded (transferred overseas), the service sector picked up some of the slack. But there's a limit to what that industry can support. In other words, the economy can't be based everyone either owning a Subway shop, a dry cleaner shop or working at Best Buy. Somewhere in the chain, somebody has to work to create some tangible value. We just can't exist by swapping around the same dollars.

I am fearful of the future. The problems are enormous and I have no faith in people like John Kerry or George Bush being able to motivate the citizens to make the tough choices. People are more interested in bickering about gay marriages, Janet Jackson's right breast, or who's going to win American Idol competition.
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#52 rsilvers

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 05:44 PM

This has happened in South Africa recently and also in China in the 1940s.
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#53 21 smoker

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 08:00 PM

What separates us from the rest of the world is our ability to change what is wrong...and we have the power to do so...backed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights...this is America, not S.Africa or China...so we can build our future.I still have hope,come November I will renew my hope.


Phil, AzDoug... It`s funny the similar paths we take..Aviation and vintage Corvettes and Thompsons...strikingly similar...I was an A&P 30yrs.ago,stung by the romance aviation...still drive my hopped up 59 roadster faster than I should...and break out the 21 every trip to the range...what a country..just my .02,out. wink.gif
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#54 AZDoug

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 01:37 AM

Here is my toy.

Anymore, I don't get bitched at by the purists because it has Cragars instead of original 4.5" wide stamped steel wheels with original hubcaps, not painted Ermine White , the heinous 1962 grill on a '61, etc, as they figure I am a heathen. :-)

And there in no point in it anyway. It is a Corvette. Whteretr it is original or not down to the Nth degree is really unimportant. I never destroyed anything. It could easily be brought back to stcock by removing teh 350/327, narrowed 12 bolt, Doug Nash 5-speed, and disc brakes.

TSMG's should be accepted the same way. They are none the less a TSMG if at sometime in the past the incorrect fire control levers were attached, or it has the wrong buttstock, or even if it has a receiver machined out of high quality 4130 chrome moly steel like the WH guns, instead of the basic generic steel like 1018/1020 that was used for the original Colt receivers.

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#55 AZDoug

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 01:41 AM

Try again

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#56 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 10:10 AM

I had a 1966 Vette with mild flares, Vector Cyclone wheels, and a 1967 427 hood, but it still had the 327/350 engine that was optioned for the car that year. When customers bought these cars back in the day, they naturally customized them to suit their tastes. The Bloomington Gold crowd are fanatics who can't see the forrest for the trees. Personalizing a Vette can easily be done without sacrificng the basic original look and power plant. Why someone would want to continue to ride on skinny 1960's Redline tires, when that technology was woefully inadequate even at the time, seems to want to sacrifice safety and performance for the sake of a gold certificate.

I don't think anyone is denying a a Thompson is still a Thompson even if it might have parts from a different gun. Of course you would not pay the same foir a Colt gun with WWII parts, or WH parts. And you wouldn't pay the same for a Savage/AO gun with WH parts. But that is not the same as qualifying any knock off gun, made from components, and by people, who had no connection to the original weapon, to be a legitimate heir to the originall gun. This would apply to a car posing as a mid-year Vette, because it has a modern made fiberglass kit body on a VW frame with a Nissan engine.

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#57 AZDoug

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 12:22 PM

The point I was trying to make is, if a piece of metal is machined into something that dimesionally is a duplicate of a Thompson, it is a Thompson.

It may not have the authenticity, or provenance, or pedigree of a gun made 80 years ago, but it is a Thompson.

Is a Pearl reweld not a Thompson becuse it was cut up for scrap, and then reweded by someone else, and they put their name on it? It will never get the money a pristine, uncut gun will, but it is still dimensionally a Thompson. A WH gun is not a Glock with some sheetmetal attached to it in the shape of a Thompson, it is diemsionally identical to that Colt .

Is my Corvette not a Corvette, because I bought it out of a junkyard, and put it back together (I have no connection with GM, and never did) and it has some non-original fiberglas pieces on it, and repro interior and trim parts, and the motor is not orignal? If i had come across an original NOS corvette frame, and original NOS fibergals body panels, and NOS suspension compnents, etc,, and assembled them into a Corvette, is it not a Corvette because I never worked for GM? Would my Corvette cease to be a Corvette if I put a new production frame under it because the old one was all rusted out?

At what point, does something go from real to fake? Is a Colt receiver that has a WH lower, and New barrel, and savege internals a Thompson, or a fake? It certainly won't bring the price of a 100% gun, but it is still a Thompson. Why is it any different that a WH receiver with all Colt parts? It still looks, and functions the same.

Doug
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#58 rsilvers

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 12:26 PM

Is a Special Weapons an HK?

No.

Is it an HK clone? Yes.

Is it an HK pattern gun? Yes.

Is it an MP5? I think it can be.

Are any of the 1911's a 1911? Yes. For sure.
Are they a Colt 1911? No.
Are they a Colt? No.

Is a DS-ARMS an FN-FAL? No.
Is it an FAL? I think so.

I think it is pretty clear a WH is a Thompson.
I think it is pretty clear a rebuild Corvette is a Corvette.
I think it is pretty clear that a kit-car that looks like a Corvette is not a Corvette.

All very confusing.

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#59 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 12:42 PM

A rebuilt Corvette is of course still a Corvette. But if it had a frame manufactured today by some business, and a non period engine, and a completely remanufactured fiberglass body, then no it's not a Corvette. I mean there are serial numbers involved and data plates. The same holds for the WH "Thompson." The only thing that replica shares with any Thompson made before 1945 is the name. And if Auto-Ord corporation had not ceased to exist back in 1944, then there would be law suits targeted at Numrich for labeling his knock-off a "Thompson." Just because a person stamps Philip Patek on a watch does not make it a Philip Patek, even if at first blush it looks just like a Philip Patek, even if it does tell time.

Every author on Thompson history/minutia i.e. Cox, Helmer, Hill, Richardson, all agree that the WH "Thompson" is indeed a replica. As far as any 1911 .45 being a legitimate 1911's based on the Colt 1911, is true only because using the term 1911 is a generic label. If WH wanted to call its version of the Thompson the "1928 Numrich" then there would be no problem.

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#60 rsilvers

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 12:54 PM

So you are saing a WH is a 'fake Rolex?'

But I thought it was authorized. Did they not buy the rights?
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