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J.c. Devine Auction


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#81 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 07:43 PM

QUOTE
Iwould be afraid to list the Goldfinger Colt for $28,000 because I would be afraid someone would buy it, and I would have to follow through.


RS,
The danger of that happening is as likely as the Mars Rover rooting up a Colt TSMG on that angry red planet.... However, I think the problem with Devine was that he intentionaly led perspective bidders to believe that the Nickel gun was indeed done by the WVPD back in the 1930's. While any refinished Colt TSMG is not more valuable than an original finish, ("Midas" gun not withstanding), some uninitiated buyers might have adjusted their bids to allow for some historical significance for this gun. Fortunately for you, your only consideration in procuring some Thompsons' was to buy any kind as cheaply as possible.

But I wonder without the WVPD gold mystique connection, how many other owners of 50% conditioned Colt's will spend a couple g's to nickel their guns?

College tuition? How old are you?

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#82 hawksnest

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 08:08 PM

IMHO cars were made for driving and guns were made for shooting. I enjoy both. biggrin.gif
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#83 rsilvers

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 08:10 PM

I am 35. I meant college tuition in the future when I have kids that age.
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#84 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 08:11 PM

Who says either variety are incapable of their intended functions?
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#85 P51Mstg

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 09:12 PM

I can settle this here and now.

I live in WV. I need a Thompson with WV history for my collection. I've seen the pictures of Rob's Nickle, or Chrome plated Goldfinger PIMPGUN. It has a bit of history you all don't know about either.

In 1966 there was a riot a Moundsvile State Penitentary. There were about 200 prisioners in control of the prison yard and there was one State Trooper J. McCormack, who retook the entire yard by himself using that that particular gun serial #1978. NO it wasn't GOLDFINGERED at the time either. John told me he walked in the yard, and fired a few dursts into the ground. Changed the magazine and shouted that the next burst would not be into the ground and leveled that Thompson at the prisioners. 30 seconds later he was alone in the yard all the prisoners were back inside. If he had looked up the serial number of that gun a few weeks earlier I would have bought it at the auction.

Rob if you wish to sell it. I will FEDX you a Certified Check for $30,000 in the morning for it.

Mark H
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#86 John Jr

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 09:29 PM

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The danger of that happening is as likely as the Mars Rover rooting up a Colt TSMG on that angry red planet....


OPPS!!!!!!!

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
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#87 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 10:46 PM

Wait a minute. This trooper grabbed a Colt TSMG off the rack at the police station, one of 49, and now nearly 40-years later, he looks up this gun (where?) and says, "Oh yah, that was the gun I used during the riot." But Mark, you knew that a WVPD Thompson was up for auction, and you have been looking for one with that department's association, and yet you passed on a chance to get a WVPD Thompson for under $15K at the Devine auction. But now you would pay $30K for one with a story connected to it?.... I mean this was not exactly the Attica riot. And you have already heard RS say he wouldn't sell the gun for $28K anyway. This is a safe offer. If this is worth $30K of historical value to somebody, when the only thing that remains the same on the gun from 1966 is the serial number, then I guess the rover just stumbled across a Colt.
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#88 John Jr

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 12:10 AM

Poor Arthur, proven wrong again.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
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#89 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 09:53 AM

John J,
Since you seem to be keeping score, could you please recount any of my "proven wrongs"?

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#90 PATHFINDER

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 10:15 AM

Arthur.
One small detail is that no one just ' grabs' a gun off of the rack in prison. You have seen too many Quinton Tarentino movies. Riot or no riot guns are tracked CAREFULLY in prisons. They have a funny way of keeping track of those things inside. Certain guards will be part of a quick response team and will have their riot gear issued to them ahead of time and waiting in particular place (like firemen). Since they are financialy responsible for this stuff it is recorded in minute detail (like serial numbers) just like in the Army. Or maybe they did just grab them off of a rack randomly, but they had to hand over a chit like took check tag and run. Then the armorer recorded the tag number and knew who had which gun. Anyway, there will be records.
So, a riot starts, Joe Schmo runs to the armory, get his issue dons the gear and runs out into the yard. BBBRRRRAAAAAP! Riot ends. One man did it. Probably would have made the papers with pictures and such. Might have been the only Thompson in the armory. The guard may have something in his personal paper work that records the serial numbers of controled items he was issued and would have to turn back in. I.e.: papaerwork recording the serial number exists
I have the WWII paperwork for both Colt .45's my father was issued durring the war. I even have the paperwork for controled item he was issued at Chryslers. Tons of reasons exist why the guard himself would know the number but the fact is the chance exists and must recognized.
Anyone who speaks in absoluts is wrong, 100% of the time.
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#91 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 11:29 AM

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Anyone who speaks in absoluts is wrong, 100% of the time. 


Pathfinder,
I think you lost track of the plot concerning this particular yarn. I never said that this story is "absolutely" wrong. But let me count the absolute facts where you are wrong. First, this was supposedly a State Trooper, not a prison guard. Second, these Colt Thompson's are West Virgina State Police guns, not prison armory guns. Third, this particular police department had 49 Colt Thompsons'. Fourth, if this Colt Thompson had such a prominent local history, don't you think that when Curtis Earl bought them that they would tell him the story that went with serial number 1976? He bought the WVSP 49 TSMG's only 4 years after this "riot." I mean why would he then select that gun, and a couple others, out of the 49 he bought from WVSP to nickel plate it? Does not add up. Not to mention this Trooper has to be near 70 today. Did he take all the paperwork regarding this incident with him from the department? And only after the auction has happend, he locates this obscure paperwork. I think your incredulous meter is not tuned in. It also does not answer the question why Mark didn't bid on the gun in the first place whether it was this "riot" gun or not.

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#92 PATHFINDER

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 02:58 PM

I was paraphrasing. It is part of the analytical process, you should try it some time, it's fun.
I will make it simple and sumarize your statement (another part of analysis).You said there is no way of knowing which gun is which. <(this is an absolute) I said you were wrong. Members of govemnment entities do not remove firearms form the rack without paperwork. As for government entities caring about the history of a particular weapon, (or indeed even knowing it) to pass on to a buyer, this has been discused here time and time again. They do not care. Famous gansters guns have been recently choped up etc. etc. etc. Remember?
I never adressed the question of WHY he bid on it or did not bid on it. I have my own life and interests.
Obscure paperwork? States and their institutions have things called an 'archive'. A person with smallest amount of academic training can find the most amazing things here.

Age has nothing to do with it. My fater died at 83 and he could still call off the serial number of the 1911 he carried as a cop in 1939.

As for my final comment "Anyone who speaks in absoluts is wrong, 100% of the time". (a joke, by the way, re-read it and you will get it) and your personal afront to it, made all the people around me crack up.
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#93 rsilvers

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 03:01 PM

I told you a million times not to exaggerate.
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#94 PATHFINDER

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 03:04 PM

Sorry. I will go to my corner now!
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#95 rsilvers

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 03:10 PM

That was a joke. You know -- I did not tell you one millon times -- I was just exaggerating.
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#96 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 03:33 PM

QUOTE
You said there is no way of knowing which gun is which.

I never adressed the question of WHY he bid on it or did not bid on it. I have my own life and interests.



Pathfinder,
I am sorry that my post distracted you for a moment away from your life pursuits. If your memory was as acute as your dear departed dad's, you would recall that I never said it was impossible to determine which TSMG might have been fired by an individual during a "riot." I merely asked "where" this ex-trooper found this info only after the auction ended. I figured that, "a person with smallest amount of academic training," to quote you, would be able to glean this tidbit from a one paragraph (no need for paraphrasing) submission. No charge for entertaining your group.

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#97 P51Mstg

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 06:45 PM

A few points here.

John McCormick works as my investigator for my law firm. I have known him for 15 years, he is 62 years old and served for 26 years 6 months and 6 days in the WV State Police. He first told me this story about 15 years ago. He has never told a lie to the best of my knowledge in his life, and he is one of three people on this planet I can call a true friend.

He was stationed at Moundsville for a number of years and was the only Trooper on duty at the time when this incident occured. At time there were Thompsons kept in each detachment. He got the call and get grabbed a Thompson and a few clips and left. During his time in Moundsville the State Police took care of the more intense duties in the Prison such as riot problems. Guard were guards, THINGS WERE different back then. I don't think that they would shoot first today. (go to SF and go to Alcatraz hear the tour, there was a dining room incident where the guard popped a few rounds from a Thompson that calmed the prisoners back down). He also was assigned to go to Detroit in 1967 for the riots there. He told me about a single Detroit police officer with a 1897 Wincehster riot gun full of buckshot that that turned back an entire mob. He thought that was much more impressive than the Thompson incident.

There was also our County Sheriff here in Logan who protected our Courthouse in 1967 with 2 1917 water cooled Brownings with orders to his deputies to "shoot to kill" any rioters. So we didn't have the problems YOU all had in Detroit, Chicago, and LA.

He wrote the serial numbers of the guns down. He also has the numbers of guns used in several other detachments in the state. He also has serial numbers of every gun he used in the WVSP as well as the US Army. His M14's number is memorized, as well as a few others.

John just moved and he was going through some old records in the attic and knew I was interested in Thompsons and gave me the number of the gun. Unfortunately he did that AFTER THE AUCTION NOT BEFORE.

I didn't go to the auction because I didn't want a Chrome plated Thompson from WV and the presale ESTIMATES from THE EXPERTS were PRETTY high. By the time I took off work and went to the sale I might as well have just bought a 95% gun off the rack. If I knew this was the gun, I would have bought it. No matter what the price at auction.

I don't know WHAT Curtis Earl was or wasn't told, I had never met him nor do I wish to meet him in the near future. Should anyone see him and get a message back, ask him what they told him about this gun.

I made Ron an offer that is fair and reasonable. He would make a good profit on this gun and be able to buy another Thompson. He has no real connection to this gun. I would probably give it to John, I gave him an Smith Enterprises M14 for his 60th Birthday,I'd see if I could have this Thompson fixed and give it to him for his next birthday, he deserves it. He's done his duty and its only the right thing to do.

Well Ron think about it. You have 4 Thompsons I've got about 15. One more with way isn't going to make a lot of difference. Of course a lot of people think you or I shouldn't have more than 1 each to keep them in circulation

Mark H
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#98 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 06:54 PM

Mark,
Just like Paul Harvey says, now I know the rest of the story. I think it is a noble, and expensive, gesture you are performing. Your right. I think Robert should definitely evaluate your offer, considering that particular TSMG doesn't have any significance to him. If Devine's hears about that gun being turned around for $30K, he might be encouraged to plate all TSMG's that come across his auction block. I can understand your reticence to meet the man (Curtis Earl) who ruined the finish on #1976, but he passed away three years ago.

John J,
You were right. That makes one in a row.

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#99 rsilvers

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 07:38 PM

Mark H,

Here is the problem -- it is correct I am not really attached to Golfinger yet (although I seem like it more than many). But I really wanted to jumpstart my collection without having to search like crazy as prices go up and up. So it is not just money but also my lack of resources to find a replacement. While I said I would be unhappy to sell it for $28,000 -- there is a threshhold where I could let it go and you basically there with $30K -- but then I would need to find another gun. I assume you have a Thompson because you read this board. Please send me the photo of the nicest Thompson you could part with in trade, and then maybe kick in $10,000 more -- to bring the value of the trade back to $30K or so (assuming the one you have to trade is worth $20K to you). And I will probably be happy to do it. Especially for that guy.

BTW -- not everyone hates Goldfinger. I got maybe 6 or 7 emails from people who said they like it.

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#100 21 smoker

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 09:27 PM

All I can say is this has been an incredible thread!....I almost feel let down with my 21...it was used by the NY Daily News to guard their payroll...how mundane...If only my Savage 28 could talk about any WWII action it saw...maybe my WH28 fell off the rack at the factory shook up some uncaring employee....I`ll go to my room now,out. wink.gif
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