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Whats The Significance Of C&r For The Buyer?


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#1 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 09:10 PM

Just curious as to what it means to the buyer when a seller lists his TSMG as a C&R. The 50 year rule would apply to all Savage and Colts. Do any of the post war models qualify? I have my application in for a C&R now and the ATF has cashed my check but I cant get a Savage sent to my P.O. Box right?


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#2 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 09:15 PM

You will have to personally sign for the gun and it has to be shipped to your own address, i.e. the address on your C&R, or you will have to pick it up in person from the shipper with proof of ID.
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#3 full auto 45

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 09:17 PM

Some states have a C&R only, so all you can own legelly are the C&R guns. And no you cannot have it shipped to your POB. A street address is required by UPS and FEDEX to deliver a gun over night. A C&R is also helpful when traveling from state to state with your guns as you don't have to fil out a 5320.20 form for your C&R guns if you have a C&R permit. I think I've got it all right. If not someone will correct me.
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#4 Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 09:36 PM

I was being facetious about the P.O Box (one of my faults) but you're not really saying that I can have a class 3 weapon sent to my C&R address just by the virtue of me having one right?

And you got me curious about how you shooters carry your Thompsons to shoot across state lines, what is the legalities behind that?
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#5 Bill in VA

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 10:46 PM

Yes, that's pretty much the gist of it. If you hold a C&R FFL you can receive any C&R firearm, Title II or otherwise, direct to your home. For the purposes of C&R interstate firearms' transactions a C&R FFL is an FFL. Receiving a C&R TSMG from an out-of-state source is no different than receiving a C&R Mauser from an out-of-state source. Moreover, since an FFL can travel interstate with Title II firearms/devices without begging permission, a C&R FFL can do likewise provided the TItle II firearms/devices are C&R. OTOH, a C&R FFL desiring to transport a non-C&R Title II firearm out-of-state still needs to beg permission from the BATF. A C&R FFL is treated the same as any other FFL in regards to C&R transfers, the difference is that for non-C&R transfers, a C&R FFL is no different than Joe Citizen (i.e., restrictions on receiving interstate, 4473/NICS, etc... for non-C&R firearms.)


Do any of the post-war models qualify? Sure. The WH M1 TSMGs are C&R guns even though they were made between 1985 and 1986 only. Many of the commemorative WH '28 TSMGs are also C&R. Remember, the 50 year old rule is but one of the criteria used to establish C&R status. C&R firearms are also those that are unique/novel/bizarre/rare/associated with an historical event/person and thus derive a substantial part of their value by such virtue, and/or those firearms certified by a firearms museum curator/expert as being a curio or relic.

HTH
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#6 TN.Frank

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 09:26 AM

biggrin.gif When you get your Type 03 lic. you'll get a book listing most C&R firearms and devices. You'll be surprised at what you can buy, I know that I was. If you get a C&R machine gun you won't have to go thru a Class III dealer, just do the paper work, pay your $200 dollar tax, wait for everything to clear then have your new "toy" sent to your home, nothing could be neater. A C&R is the best money that you'll ever spend.
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#7 giantpanda4

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 11:51 AM

You can go to the C&R list online.

http://www.atf.gov/f...s/2001index.htm

There is an update as well. On p48 (of my hardcopy) there is all of the Thompson models listed that are C&R approved. I read it as only the WH commemmoratives are C&R, not all WH tsmgs. I believe there are only about 700 of them, and someone was selling a "new" one on Subguns.com recently for around $11k, if I remember right. Right up there in M1 money....

The C&R is the best way to go...
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#8 Bill in VA

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 03:59 PM

Giantpanda,
Scroll on down a little further. The 609 WH M1s are also listed (the entire run of serial numbers) with the WWII and Korean War commemorative '28s. The C&R updates (as of June 2003) also list the original WH 22 LR TSMGs. It seems about the only full-auto TSMGs not counted as C&R are the "standard" (non-commemorative) WH '28s and WH TF-suffixed '28s (the 22 LR converted to 45 acp/steel receivers), and of course the oddballs (rewelds, Pearl, Group Industries, etc...)


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#9 john

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 05:50 PM

Yep!
Mailorder machineguns....
Is this a great country or WHAT???? cool.gif

Had my S&W 76 left on my deck. I thought the UPS slip was for a Midway order of reloading supplies, so I wrote on it "leave by door" and signed it.

Next day there is a large box (lots of bubble wrap) on the front deck.
Sure enough, it's my new subgun. Live. On the deck all day.

Glad I live in a good neighborhood!

You can also buy other stuff on the C&R list out of state....Lugers, Mausers, etc. As long as it's on the list.

Enjoy your license!

john
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#10 Chopper28

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 03:53 PM

I have a question about C&R guns. Will the West Hurley TSMG's automatically go on the list once they are 50 years old?
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#11 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 04:39 PM

Chopper,
Can't wait until 2025? Some of the WH type Thompson's already are on the list.

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#12 full auto 45

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 05:04 PM

I use UPS all the time. I have my stuff shipped to work where I receive everything. I even take in my Thompson's everynow and then. Soooo that's why everyone is so nice to me.
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#13 Chopper28

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 05:29 PM

Yes Arthur, the Commemorative models are already on the list, why I don't know, but will the regular production guns go on it starting in 2025?
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#14 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 06:01 PM

Chopper,
The S&W 76 (1968-74) is on the list, but the MK760 (1983-86) is not. The 1986 Tippman Mini Browning is on the list, but the new Lakeside Tippman Replica's are not. But I don't think it is an automatic, nor guaranteed, process after x amount of years have elapsed, that a particular gun is so classified as C&R.

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#15 Bill in VA

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 07:27 PM

Chopper, look up a few posts. I already listed the WH TSMGs that are currently C&R. (They're also listed in the BATF C&R list on thier web site.)
HTH
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#16 Chopper28

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 07:48 PM

Bill, I already know what WH are on the C& R list, that was not the question. The question is will the regular production WH guns go on the list after they are 50 years old? Arthur answered the question.
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#17 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 08:22 PM

Hardrede,
Yah, but while the Tippman Browning semi and full auto are C&R, the post 1986 Lakeside semi's are not. Of course no post 86 MG's would be available to any license type holder other than Class III . C&R classification on these weapons would defeat the purpse of the 86 law

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#18 Deputy 89C6

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 09:15 PM

I can really sympathize with hardrede's UPS nightmare stories. Last year I purchased a saddle from a guy in Montanna. Following it on UPS's tracking system I saw that it was out for delivery on a truck in Murfreesboro Tennessee...only two states away from home.

I called the UPS 1 800 - run - around and was told the same information that I was reading on my computer...it's out for delivery. I couldn't make the doofus understand that my address was not in Tennessee. Finally after talking to this twits supervisor he said that he would investigate and call me back.

He did call a couple of hours later and explained that it was the fault of the shipper...that he had apparently amde the IN look like a TN on the label. (How this explained the zip code and town it arrived in I don't know.)

I let the guy keep up his double talk explaining how it wasn't UPS's fault while I was in the process of opening the very same parcel that their website said was out for delivery in Murfreesboro. I finally told the jerk that he was a pretty good liar...that the saddle had arrived only 15 minutes ago. There was only dead silence on the line as he racked his brain to come up with an explaination, so I said "by the way...the illlegible label was printed....the IN is unmistakeable." His response was "Well. thank you for using UPS....click"

This wouldn't have been so bad if they had not turned around and put an AR 15 comming from Idaho on a truck out for delivery in Omaha Nebraska instead of at my dealres shop in Indiana a couple of weeks later.

Being curious as to how the dealer I use for net transfers accepts UPS shipments, since he's only open in the evenings I asked who signs for the firearms when he's not open. He said that the UPS driver leaves them with the antique shop next door and he picks them up when he opens...unbelieveable isn't it? Even more unbelieveable is the time when the antique shop wasn't open, and I personally went to the UPS hub after hours and the driver handed over a rifle to me...he said "I guess it's okay since your a deputy sheriff" I took it to the dealer and filled out the paper work.

The straw that broke the camel's back came several months ago when I went to UPS to ship a saddle to Germany and the clerk looked very annoyed and said "why don't you take it to Fedex". I will never ship via UPS again...and receiving goods shipped through them is dicy at best.

C6
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#19 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 10:55 PM

Hardrede,
Lakeside did not make thier replicas of the semi Tippman until after 1986. Has nothing to do with Classs III stuff. But he wants to get a C&R rating on his semi's. How did the 1986 NFA Law come into this picture?

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#20 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 11:05 PM

Hardrede,
Yah, I guess for those uninitiated with what Tippmans are, it might seem confusing. Tippman's (full auto only, and semi-auto only) were made between 1985-86. He ceased prodcution when the 86 law came down. Same with the MK760's that went out of production in 86. So what would the 1986 law have to do with any of these ever being considered for C&R status? Lakeside does currently make full auto mini Browning's for law enforcement, (what cops would with this gun is another matter), and those folks holding the proper post ban licenses.

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