21 replies to this topic

[Tman]

Guys,
While doing research on a S&W model 76, I came across the fact the fact that they are considered C&R guns. I found that S&W made about 6000 of them from 1968-1974. I scoured the TCA issues on the net and found the production numbers for WH 28's, did the math and found that only 2900 or so were made between 1975 and 1986. My question is how did S&W M76's get C&R status when there are alot more of them that of WH 28's? They are not 50 yrs old or older, not rare, bizarre or associated with a historical character or event. I guess some curator of a museum said they are cuz that's the only way I see them getting C&R status. WH 28's should be able to fit because their value is derived from the fact that approximately 2900 of them were made and I imagine that not all of them survive today.

I submit to you that we WH 28 owners should apply to have our fine weapons designated as C&R's. I'm willing to put my name on a letter. Any other takers? I would think that we would need to get a good number of owners to sign off on the request.

Greg

[21 smoker]

Greg,..I`m there Tman,..where do I sign?..great idea,out.

[giantpanda4]

Greg,

Excellent idea. I read a question here about a year ago that was very similar. I think the TCA should be the group to petition that cause as well as this group (many are involved in both).

Which brings up some questions... will that make the "value" of WH guns approach the originals? If so, is that a bad thing? Will the TCA support Westies? I sense an Arthur reply....

I hope this could be done. I won't be able to attend the annual TCA meeting this year, but maybe it could be brought up there!

[mgdoc8307]

I'm in- where do I sign. Doesn't hurt to petition for C&R status. I agree that a large number of petitioners would be preferable if there is any hope of gaining the designation .

[hawksnest]

How strange that West Hurely Model M-1, caliber .45, manufactured by Auto Ordnance Corp, West Hurley, New York between 1985 and 1986 having S/N M100A to M717A and all West Hurley Model 1928 Korean War Commerative submachineguns in caliber .45 are on the curios and relics list but the .22 caliber is not nor are any other 1928 West Hurley, (except for the Korean War Commerative). While you are petitioning for the West Huley 1928 to be added to the C&R list you might want to include both .45 caliber and .22 caliber. As to the Smith & Wesson 76 submachinegun, they may have made 6,000 but I have heard fewer than 2,000 are still in existence. I suppose the 76 attained C&R status, in part, because it was the only submachinegun Smith ever produced.

[Bruce V 21/28]

I beleive Hawksnest is correct, it is my understanding the C & R status is because the 76 was the only Sub-gun Smith & Wesson produced.

[Bill in VA]

Actually, the .22 LR TSMGs with "TF" prefix are on the C&R list. (They're teh origninal WH .22 LR TSMGs with the aluminum alloy (pot metal???) receivers.) They aren't listed in the tan booklet (2001 edition) but are listed in the most recent C&R list update of December 2003.

See: http://www.atf.gov/f...o0603update.htm

What boggles my mind is the WH M1s. Apparently they're C&R due to there being only 609 of them, but with listed serial numbers (BATF C&R list, nfatoys.com's listing, and WH A-O listings) of M100A-M717A that comes up with 618 guns...what happened to the other 9 and what serial numbers are missing??? (I know, we've hashed through this before and AFAIK, never did find a satisfactory answer.)

HTH

Edited by Bill in VA, 22 March 2004 - 10:39 PM.

[craig101]

I seriously doubt you will get the WH28 thommpsons that were originally .22 then converted to .45 to be C&R. when i got the ATF to make the .22 WH29s to be C&R, they agreed in that they were original and a fair amount had been "altered" to .45 caliber. so i bet you they are going to consider the .22/45 WH28s as altered guns and not make them C&R.

I would say go for it on the WH 28s. hell it's worth a shot. but the ATF has no rhyme or reason as to why they do stuff. if all you do is look at the number made and how many examples exist in the registry, that will not answer your question. they don't solely look at # made. if that was the only criteria, the ATF would have added the Colt AR-15 01 to the C&R when i asked as the Colt marked 01s are a lot more rare than the Armalite marked ones are.

it's worth a shot, but don't get your hopes up. that way if they add the WH28s to the C&R list, you will really surprised.

[hawksnest]

Bill in Va: Thanks for the updated C&R list information.

[fred]

This is too logical, but for paperwork reasons alone, all fully automatic Thompsons should be C&R. Right now, the WH 1928s that are not commemorative are not and some of the .22s are not. Then again, logic is not a real important part of the governmant!

[The1930sRust]

QUOTE (craig101 @ Mar 22 2004, 10:37 PM)

I seriously doubt you will get the WH28 thommpsons that were originally .22 then converted to .45 to be C&R. when i got the ATF to make the .22 WH29s to be C&R, they agreed in that they were original and a fair amount had been "altered" to .45 caliber.

The .22 caliber XXXTF serial numbered guns were not converted or altered to .45. The receivers were destroyed and the serial numbers attached to new .45 receivers right before the 86 ban, yes?

[Bill in VA]

QUOTE (The1930sRust @ Mar 23 2004, 08:52 PM)

The .22 caliber XXXTF serial numbered guns were not converted or altered to .45. The receivers were destroyed and the serial numbers attached to new .45 receivers right before the 86 ban, yes?

That's also my understanding.

[John Jr]

Every single mg of any kind that is transferrable should be on the list too. Since no more can be placed on the registery, they are rare and unusual.

My opinion.

Jr

[craig101]

PhilOhio-

"In the absence of any objective criteria for C&R classification, it is not possible to predict what an administrative employee will or will not do. We can guess. And the process seems to be rather liberal."

you are correct in that we don't know what the ATF will say on the WH28s. all we can do is surmise. in your view the process seems rather liberal, but in my view i don't think it is that liberal.

if it was so liberal why are not all Amnesty AKs on the list?? by the numbers and $$$ value, they have EVERY right to be on the C&R list, but you have submit each original AK to see if the ATF will consider them C&R. hell so should the 10 or so ORIGINAL UZIs (pre-70) and original MP5s (pre-70).

what does rather liberal mean? does it mean if i submit a reasonable, factual letter with valid reasons as to why a gun should be added to the C&R list that they will automatically rubber stamp it? i didn't experience that, as they did not approve my petition to have the Colt 01s added to the C&R list.

however, they did approve my petition to add the .22 WH28s to the list.

but which criteria does the WH 28 satisfy to be a C&R gun? is it 50 years old? is it odd/derive a large part of its value from being an oddity/curio? was it part of any significant "event"? have they been certified to be C&R of museum interest? i think no on every question.

like i said before, don't get your hopes up. that way if they approve it, you can be happy rather than let down.

I REALLY wish they would add A LOT more MGs to the C&R list as i live in a C&R state.

[Mike Hammer]

Actually I had asked on this board a few months ago, if a movement was afoot to get the '28 WH listed as a C&R, did not get a single reply. But I do think this would be a highly worthwhile effort to try and get a C&R status for these guns. I WOULD lay claim that the '28 West Hurley DOES indeed derive a large part of it's value from being an oddity or curio. They are a very small quanity of guns produced which are in essence a full-auto copy of the military Thompsons... this in itself should qualify as a rarity or curio, just as the M1 version of the West Hurleys already have. Would someone please get the ball rolling on this, I will gladly add my name to such a request.

Mike Hammer

[DC Chris]

I would support this effort as well. Let me know if I can help.

Chris.

[Tman]

To get this kicked off I think we need to get a real good handle on the production figures for this model to show its rarity. Is the one on the TCA site accurate? I think we can show the inherent value of these firearms by the fact that each time it passes from one owner to another the price grows by $1000 (at least).

Also, we probably need to get a good list of owners who want to submit their name on the proposal. I notice that on some C&R's on the list show individual firearms. I think we should go for the whole lot instead of piecemeal.

I have no problem taking the lead on this and maybe call in a favor or two.

Comments?

[full auto 45]

I do believe the TCA site numbers are correct. You can throw my name in the hat. That way I don't have to fill out this form everytime I want to go to Ky and shoot!

[Kevin]

You can add my name too. Kevin

[SecondAmend]

Were I considered about the greater good of all, I would favor the proposal to have all WH TSMGs classified as C&Rs. However, having paid the premium for a C&R WH (Korean War Comm.), I wish to preserve that premium, at least for my expected lifetime. I, therefore, oppose the proposed petition. Call it a special case of "Thompson Greed" if you will.

By the way, notice that the 17 Vietnam Comm. WHs do not appear to be C&Rs or am I missing the line.