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History's Mysterys Discovery Channel


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#21 chitowngangster

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 08:10 PM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Apr 4 2004, 03:55 PM)
chit,
If the object was to see how many bullets a human body could sustain without dying, then they exceeded beyound their wildest expectations. But the object of the excercise was to eradicate Moran and his boys. These hoods miscalculated Moran being there and then they left a witness alive.  The fact that Gussenburg was stoic to the end seems to only underline the wreckless stupidity of the gangster mentality. I'm not sure what prestige there would be to own a bullet-ridden brick from the wall of the garage other than some morbid curiosity like those who couldn't wait to grab a piece off of Bonnie and Clyde's death car. 

Arthur,

To each his own.I wonder what you have in your closet that i might find weird.Also you have picked the name Arthur Fliegenheimer isn't that Dutch Schultz's name?

From all your posts and replies to them, i see all the others think of you as kind of wacky yourself! And for the mistaking of Moran those weren't Capone boys that did the job.These were imports used by Capone.That's what happens when you don't do the job yourself.No prestige in owning the brick but let me tell you the price keeps climbing up!!!!! biggrin.gif


Chitown

Edited by chitowngangster, 04 April 2004 - 08:13 PM.

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#22 chitowngangster

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Apr 4 2004, 09:06 PM)
I guess we should step back, catch a breath, pause from our technical analysis, and note that this massacre was such a horrendous thing that it marked the end of an era.  The public was repelled.  Political pressures lead to at least some changes and improvements in law enforcement.  Everybody said, "Enough is enough."

Sure, since then there have been lesser mob shootings in the northeast and elsewhere, as Jimmy Hoffa might agree, wherever he is, but the whole climate changed.  And let's hope it never returns.

Now all we have to worry about are fanatical Arabs bent on murdering women and children and office clerical workers...and using box cutters to highjack the airplanes used to do it.  Let's hope that the legal tools ostensibly built to deal with this threat are not manipulated by the "usual people" to further subjugate our own population...as has been repeatedly done in past times of national emergency.  Japanese Americans know about that.  And of course this also was given to us by the Democratic Party and would-be President-for-Life Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Phil,
Very Wise words and amen to that!You're like an open window to the beginning of a heated debate.
The fascination with the massacre for me is was also ballistics and how it was planned.
Nobody was every brought to trial for it thus it remains an interesting mystery to this day.Many people do not realize the magnitude of the massacre was back then.In a time where there was no t.v. and no internet this event made the newspapers the world over that very day.An amazing feat in itself.Yes, we must remember about the past and preserve it as a reminder just like all the events.At least back then the gangsters killed amongst themselves. Today is a very different story

Tell me Phil could a .45 slug remove half a persons face at close range?The reason i ask is because one of the massacre victim's had half his head blown off.Shotgun was used ,but someone who is debating this theory with me states a .45 slug was the culprit.(A shotgun was also used in the massacre).You're ballistics point of view is much appreciated!

Keep safe and warm my friends! You too Arthur wink.gif

Edited by chitowngangster, 04 April 2004 - 09:53 PM.

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#23 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 10:02 PM

chi,
Your sense of the esteemed value your brick(s) posess reminds me of a scene from John Wayne's "The Shootist." When the barber collects the shorn locks from John Bernard Books to be sold as curios, he also sweeps the hair from all the other customers that day into the dust bin. At any rate, the following is an interesting 2001 report on these bricks:



"The club continued to operate for a few years and when it closed the owner placed the 417 bricks into storage. He then offered them for sale with a written account of the massacre. He sold the bricks for $1000 each, but soon found that he was getting back as many as he sold. It seemed that anyone who bought one of the bricks was suddenly stricken with bad luck in the form of illness, financial ruin, divorce and even death.
According to the stories, the bricks themselves had somehow been infested with the powerful negative energy of the massacre!
Whatever became of the rest of the bricks is unknown..........
Or that's what the legend says....

According to a Canadian man named Guy Whitford, things may not be just as the legend has them. In fact, he writes "you were correct when you wrote about the bricks being offered for sale in the 1970's, but the fact is, although he had many offers, George never sold a single brick."
You see, Whitford claims to be a friend of the Canadian businessman, George Patey, who originally bought the back wall of the warehouse many years ago... and he is also the man who is now tracking down a buyer for the authenticated wall of 414 bullet-marked bricks.
"He always had a problem with breaking up the wall, until now", Whitford continued. "The last substantial offer for the entire wall was made by a Las Vegas casino about a decade ago, but George quaffed at the offer..... so that "bad luck to those who bought one" concept must be a rumor or a journalistic embellishment".
The two men are still trying to sell the wall, which comes with a diagram that explains how to restore the wall to its original form. The bricks are even numbered for reassembly. The bricks have been on the market now for nearly three decades, but so far, they have had no luck in selling them..... I wonder why? Click here for more information! about the current sale of the bricks.

In recent years, other bricks have emerged that claim to have come from the wall. These were not bricks purchased from Patey but were smuggled out of the lot by construction workers and curiosity-seekers. It was said that from these bricks come the legends of misfortune and bad luck. Are these bricks authentic? The owners say they are... but you'll have to judge for yourself!"

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#24 chitowngangster

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 10:12 PM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Apr 4 2004, 10:02 PM)
chi,
Your sense of the esteemed value your brick(s) posess reminds me of a scene from John Wayne's "The Shootist." When the barber collects the shorn locks from John Bernard Books to be sold as curios, he also sweeps the hair from all the other customers that day into the dust bin.  At any rate, the following is an interesting report on these bricks:



"The club continued to operate for a few years and when it closed the owner placed the 417 bricks into storage. He then offered them for sale with a written account of the massacre. He sold the bricks for $1000 each, but soon found that he was getting back as many as he sold. It seemed that anyone who bought one of the bricks was suddenly stricken with bad luck in the form of illness, financial ruin, divorce and even death.
According to the stories, the bricks themselves had somehow been infested with the powerful negative energy of the massacre!
Whatever became of the rest of the bricks is unknown..........
Or that's what the legend says....

According to a Canadian man named Guy Whitford, things may not be just as the legend has them. In fact, he writes "you were correct when you wrote about the bricks being offered for sale in the 1970's, but the fact is, although he had many offers, George never sold a single brick."
You see, Whitford claims to be a friend of the Canadian businessman, George Patey,  who originally bought the back wall of the warehouse many years ago... and he is also the man who is now tracking down a buyer for the authenticated wall of 414 bullet-marked bricks.
"He always had a problem with breaking up the wall, until now", Whitford continued. "The last substantial offer for the entire wall was made by a Las Vegas casino about a decade ago, but George quaffed at the offer..... so that "bad luck to those who bought one" concept must be a rumor or a journalistic embellishment".
The two men are still trying to sell the wall, which comes with a diagram that explains how to restore the wall to its original form. The bricks are even numbered for reassembly. The bricks have been on the market now for nearly three decades, but so far, they have had no luck in selling them..... I wonder why?  Click here for more information! about the current sale of the bricks.

In recent years, other bricks have emerged that claim to have come from the wall. These were not bricks purchased from Patey but were smuggled out of the lot by construction workers and curiosity-seekers. It was said that from these bricks come the legends of misfortune and bad luck. Are these bricks authentic? The owners say they are... but you'll have to judge for yourself!"

Arthur,
That article was totally made up.I happen to know Mr. Whitford and Mr. George Patey the actual wall owner personally .He told me reporters took it upon themselves to embellish the story.Just like when they tell you if you pass by the masscre site today you will hear screaming, dogs barking, yadda yadda yadda!!No such thing, all bull.Mr. Patey has had the wall since 1967 all 414 bricks from that wall.Nothing has ever happened to him.I own two and i'm still alive AAARRRRRRGGHHHHH wait, Help! I'm having a heart attack as we speak !!!!!! Hee! Hee!Whatever.Now of the 414 bricks he originally owned only 123 are left.One of mine is currently on display at the Gerald Ford museum in Michigan for a roaring twenties Jazz display.

Chitown.

Edited by chitowngangster, 04 April 2004 - 10:14 PM.

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#25 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 10:24 PM

Phil,
About the Japanese internment, that was hardly an idea favored by FDR's administration alone. The initial demnads to round up Nisei came from Congressman John Rankin and the suggestion had the full backing of six Supreme Court Justices including a very vociferous Hugo Black, and future Chief Justice (then Govenor) Earl Warren. Even the ACLU gave their blessings. It is difficult to superimpose hindsight onto the extraordinary events of a time past. I'm sure there are those who still recoil in horror that Truman desegregated the military in 47.

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#26 gijive

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 06:34 AM

chitowngangster,

If you get a chance, watch the recent Discovery Channel documentary regarding the victim's wounds. It was one of the more interesting portions of the show, at least to me. I spent the majority of my police career as a crime scene investigator and detective, so I was particularly interested in this topic. Based on the way the victim's were falling during the shooting, several of the entry wounds were in areas one wouldn't initially suspect since the victim's had their backs to the killers. John May, in particular, had several wounds at various angles as he fell backwards. Since he is the one in the crime photos with the side of his head blown off, everyone presumes only a shot gun blast could create such damage. During the reconstruction they used the actual autopsy sketches to determine the wound positions and their origins. May had a single entry wound to the rear left side of his head. During the fall, with the body moving, and the bullet possibly deflecting after penetrating the skull, the side of the head could be removed upon exit. In my opnion, it is entirely possible that a single .45 slug at the right angle, and at close range, could do such damage.

The shotguns used had pellets, as opposed to slugs, based on the pellets removed from Schwimmer's back (he was standing next to May). The photo evidence doesn't appear to me that May was hit in the face and side of the head with shotgun pellets. It would seem there would be more powder stipling or tattooing on May's face and forehead. It's hard to tell from the pictures, though.

Just my opinion on the matter.
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#27 chitowngangster

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 05:12 PM

QUOTE (gijive @ Apr 5 2004, 06:34 AM)
chitowngangster,

If you get a chance, watch the recent Discovery Channel documentary regarding the victim's wounds. It was one of the more interesting portions of the show, at least to me. I spent the majority of my police career as a crime scene investigator and detective, so I was particularly interested in this topic. Based on the way the victim's were falling during the shooting, several of the entry wounds were in areas one wouldn't initially suspect since the victim's had their backs to the killers. John May, in particular, had several wounds at various angles as he fell backwards. Since he is the one in the crime photos with the side of his head blown off, everyone presumes only a shot gun blast could create such damage. During the reconstruction they used the actual autopsy sketches to determine the wound positions and their origins. May had a single entry wound to the rear left side of his head. During the fall, with the body moving, and the bullet possibly deflecting after penetrating the skull, the side of the head could be removed upon exit. In my opnion, it is entirely possible that a single .45 slug at the right angle, and at close range, could do such damage.

The shotguns used had pellets, as opposed to slugs, based on the pellets removed from Schwimmer's back (he was standing next to May). The photo evidence doesn't appear to me that May was hit in the face and side of the head with shotgun pellets. It would seem there would be more powder stipling or tattooing on May's face and forehead. It's hard to tell from the pictures, though.

Just my opinion on the matter.

Thank-you Gijive! very interesting indeed, i will get a look at it(Documentary) when it appears here in June.What you said makes a lot of sense.

Mario


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