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Berrien County Sheriff's Guns


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#1 Guest_hardrede_*

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:55 AM

smd

Edited by hardrede, 06 October 2005 - 07:54 PM.

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#2 JimFromFL

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 05:56 PM

You bet I am interested in some pictures.

Is the police department selling these items?
Have they had them a long time?
Is there any history behind these items?

Please do share some background information. Always love to hear Thompson related stories. smile.gif
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#3 gijive

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 06:01 PM

Jim,

These are the guns we were talking about in the other post about the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. They were recently shown in the Discovery Channel documentary about the incident. Yes, they have a history and no, I don't think they are interested in selling them. biggrin.gif
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#4 gijive

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 07:00 PM

Hardrede,

I hope you are successful. I know from experience when I was a police officer that recovered Title II firearms are routinely registered on Form 10's. They can never get back into the collector realm. I wish you luck!
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#5 LSU Tiger

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 07:14 PM

Good luck to you, too. I'll write my Congressman, Rep. Richard Baker about the same thing. I'll wager that there's more than a few prime pieces in police vaults that a collector would give anything for!
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#6 chitowngangster

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 07:52 PM

Please let me know when the photos appear would love to see them.

Best regards,
Mario

Say hardrede can you send them via email to me or have Gijive send them to me.Also would it be possible for me to post them on my Capone website with credit to you of course.

Please let me know.It helps better to tel the story


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#7 chitowngangster

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 08:13 PM

Okay Hardrede,

I sent you an email with my address.I want to thank-you for sharing them with me and others.I will be very happy to post them when you send them

Best regrads,
Sincerely,
Mario biggrin.gif


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#8 gijive

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 08:58 PM

Here are the photos that Hardrede asked me to post on the two guns used in the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. In the interest of helping with Hardrede's requests for photos, I'll be happy to email jpg images of the photos, with Hardrede's permission, to anyone that is interested. Email me privately at the link provided on this Board.

FBI style case and "L" and "C" drums.

user posted image

Colt Thompson 1921A # 2347, the one utilizing the "L" drum, according to Calvin Goddard, during the massacre.

user posted image

Colt Thompson # 7580, showing the acid discoloration used to raise the ground off serial number.

user posted image

Another view of # 2347.

user posted image

Nice pictures Hardrede. Thanks for sharing them with the Board.






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#9 LSU Tiger

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 09:32 PM

I think it was the angle the pics were taken at, not a difference in shape.
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#10 full auto 45

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 09:55 PM

GiJive, If you send the pix to me via email, I'll post them on my site for all to check out. I'll post them in thumbnails with full size available by clicking on them.

That case looks just like the one I picked up at the creek last week-end.

user posted image
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#11 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 12:30 AM

They used acid to reveal the ground off numbers? Why didn't they just remove the barrel and locate the serial number inside the receiver instead?
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#12 chitowngangster

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 06:22 AM

Thank-you Randall and Gijive, i appreciate this you guys are A1!!!

You too Arthur!


Mario
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#13 gijive

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 06:31 AM

Hardrede,

I was going by Gordon Herigstad's Colt Thompson serial number book regarding # 7580 or 7380. I thought maybe your post was a typo. I don't know the real number, not having seen the gun. All the literature I've seen has it as 7580.

I would be interested in a poster of the guns and would be willing to do the photography if you would like. I have some background in photography and Photoshop and could probably come up with something nice. Let me know.
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#14 chitowngangster

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 07:10 AM

Hardrede,
My friend who is an author had the very lucky chance of firing John Dillinger's thompson that was in possession of the FBI.They let him fire a 50 rd drum of reloaded ammo in the thompson they insured for 1 million.Ironic?

Now my question to you seeing as one of these Valentine guns was used to be fired in the documentary ,would the Sheriff let a few who are buffs of the massacre and thompson fire off a few rounds?Is that set up possible?
Thought with your connections.I know the author of the massacre book that just came out and he'd enjoy shooting it as would i.

Just a thought!
Mario

user posted image

Here's my friend Rick Mattix firing off Dillinger's tommy at FBI range.

Edited by chitowngangster, 08 April 2004 - 07:11 AM.

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#15 gijive

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 07:45 AM

Arthur,

I wondered about that myself. The acid method was popular during that era, but I'm sure whoever did it wasn't worried about ruining the finish on the gun. Sure would have been easier to remove the barrel and check the number. Maybe they wanted the documentation on the receiver at the Coroner's Inquests for some reason. I think, though, that it was just the popular method of the day.

PhilOhio,

The actuator knobs on the Colt guns are, in fact, slightly larger than some of the WWII production actuator knobs. The difference is very slight, but the Colt knobs are more nicely formed. When I get a chance, I'll post some pictures of the differences.
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#16 gijive

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 09:55 AM

PhilOhio,

Good points.

Regarding the secret number issue, there was an instance where the Chicago Police actually did consult with Auto-Ordnance Corp. regarding the serial number. Marcellus Thompson traveled to Chicago and a Thompson used in a crime was traced by removing the barrel and checking the hidden number. I have the information somewhere and will look through my reference material to locate which case it was on.

Why it wasn't done in this case is a mystery I'm sure we'll never know. If you look closely at the pictures I posted earlier, the acid hadn't been used at the time the photo was taken showing the gun being test fired to recover ballistic evidence. That picture was taken in Chicago, so the acid number restoration was done sometime after the gun had already been identified as being used in the crime.
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#17 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 04:41 PM

Strange that #2357 has "Full Auto" and "Single" on frame instead of "Automatic" and "Semi Automatic"?
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#18 gijive

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 05:15 PM

Good observation Arthur. If I get to see the guns at some point, that is one thing that I will make sure to check, the grip frame on that gun. I think Doug Richardson's recent study shows that some guns that should have had early markings, in fact didn't and some that shouldn't, did. I think the explanation was that some parts may have been sent back to the production line for fine tuning and were assembled on later production guns and vice versa.
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#19 colt21a

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 08:27 PM

chicago trace,serial #4656.........hymie weiss case,also maybe wielded by capone himself in the mcswiggin asst.state attorney gundown.........{the case that marcellus worked on in chciago}

no idea how this gun was used and traced in both crimes........i have seen the gun and held it,along with the c-drum with number's removed also,
was found on top of a doghouse roof on the north side after the hymie chicago slayings................

gun and drum are still in about 90% overall cond.and the drum function's and in very good shape.
for the story................take care,ron
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#20 chitowngangster

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 08:37 PM

QUOTE (colt21a @ Apr 8 2004, 08:27 PM)
chicago trace,serial #4656.........hymie weiss case,also maybe wielded by capone himself in the mcswiggin asst.state attorney gundown.........{the case that marcellus worked on in chciago}

no idea how this gun was used and traced in both crimes........i have seen the gun and held it,along with the c-drum with number's removed also,
was found on top of a doghouse roof on the north side after the hymie chicago slayings................

gun and drum are still in about 90% overall cond.and the drum function's and in very good shape.
for the story................take care,ron

Hello Ron,
Say where is the Hymie Weiss assassination tommy located now?
Best regards,

Mario

Here's view of the Weiss murder tommy
user posted image
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