17 replies to this topic

[21 smoker]

hardrede,..my opinion would be a picture similar to the one the cover of the TCA newsletter this month... left side,slightly angled so you can read the serial number and maybe the perps in the background... just some thoughts,out.

[chitowngangster]

Yes! definitely with the drum and serial number.

Mario

[SecondAmend]

What number is on the trigger frame?

[gijive]

While reading this debate on the questioned serial number on one of the St. Valentine's Day Thompsons, the following thoughts occurred to me and I think these facts should be considered before jumping to conclusions:

Serial number 7580 had a traceable history from Auto-Ordnance to a gun shop in Chicago that had a history of selling Thompsons that ended up being used in murders and other crimes. The original recipient of the gun was later murdered, gangland style, on the west side of Chicago. The fact the the serial numbers on the receiver and grip frame were ground off also fits the pattern of several guns sold through this particular dealer. The gun was obviously not intended for legitimate use.

Calvin Goddard, who positively identified the gun ballistically, also performed the acid raising of the serial number which was a common way of restoring grounf off serial numbers on weapons. Having some knowledge of forensics, I can tell you that the raised serial number would have been studied under a microscope after the acid treatment, not just observed with the naked eye. Based on the number they observed (7580) Auto-Ordnance records indicated the gun was shipped on a particular date to the Chicago gun dealer.

The Cook County Coroner's Jury held hearings over a several month period extensively reviewing the history and sale of numerous Thompson submachine guns sold in the Chicago area that were used in several murders and took testimony from several individuals involved in the illegal sale of these guns. The transcripts of these hearings still exist and have been studied by several Chicago gangster researchers including author Bill Helmer and Thompson researcher Gordon Herigstad. All the available documents regarding the recovery of the gun in Fred Burke's possession list the serial number as 7580.

The gun has been in the possession of the Berrien County Sheriff's Department for all these years with ample opportunity for someone responsible for the gun to have noticed the discrepancy in the serial number. If the gun is registered on a Form 10 as previously mentioned, it should be a simple matter to check the paperwork to determine the registered number.

Gordon Herigstad's Colt Thompson Serial Number book has been exhaustively researched and contains much more detail regarding the tracking of the Thompsons used in the massacre than is listed here. His book also has no information listed for serial number 7380, which indicates that the gun has never surfaced in the years since Gordon started his research and apparently no Auto-Ordnance shipping records exist regarding that particular serial number. Cox's book from the early 1980's and HIlls book also do not list serial number 7380.

The point is, that I find it unlikely that Calvin Goddard, who positively identified the slugs and shell casings through the use of ballistics would make such a simple mistake as misreading one of the digits in the serial number. It is also entirely possible that the barrel was removed during the initial investigation and the number verified.

Like Hardrede previously stated, before we rewrite history, I'm sure a more detailed examination of the ground off number will reveal that the forensic experts of the day had it right all along.

[gijive]

Hardrede,

I know you didn't mean any disrespect to anyone involved. I applaud your efforts to generate some interest in the forensic aspects of serial number restoration.

I have a friend, who is a gangster researcher in the Chicago area, that was interviewed in the original production recently shown on the Discovery Channel and is involved in the current production you mention. I know that part of the new production is documenting the technology used at the time of the Massacre.

Looking forward to the information on the posters.

[chitowngangster]

Good one Phil!
Yes ,it has been stated that Calvin Goddard wanted the coroner's jury to go ohh!! and wow!!! when he used the acid method.
He didn't want to ask the help from Colt or Thompson.(Egos).
This was mentioned in Helmer's book.Yes, i know because i got the ball rolling for the original discovery documentary (through Termite productions) to made in the first place to coincide with Bill Helmer and Art Bilek's book.I did not take part in it myself.
The infamous gun dealer was Peter Von Frantius and his gunsmith Valentine Juchs who ground off the numbers.Charged 2 dollars to remove any serial numbers.

Even if it was 7580, it is still real interesting stuff!

Gijive who's the historian Binder, Mattix,Trickel?

Hardrede pat yourself on the back for me.I thoroughly enjoy this stuff and you have made my day by posting up photos.
Let me know as i plan to buy the poster and if you want i will place a
mention on my site for others to buy posters and support your cause.

Best regards,

Mario


Best regards,
Mario

Edited by chitowngangster, 14 April 2004 - 06:21 PM.

[full auto 45]

Enough about the serial number of 7580 or 7380, I just want to know does the gun have white or yellow paint in the lettering?!




ok, I'm in the corner

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Acid and white/yellow lettering don't mix.

[colt21a]

umm! 7580 is around and 7530 never surfaced.......i owned #7519...i was getting close...............check the paperwork,and pull the freakin barrel already............you won't hurt it,remember its been fired and reblued already...........and defaced with grinding mark's...............

then we can put this dog to rest.........oh!!i mean COLT...
WINK!! Ron of respect...............

[gijive]

chitowngangster,

John Binder is the person I was referring to. I know that he has several pictures on your site.

[chitowngangster]

Yep Gijive Binder has a few on there.I try to give as much publicity to these historians and their books as possible.(for free).I got a few links for tommy gun websites by the kind gentlemen here.If any of you want to add some let me know and i'll kindly oblige.

Mario

[colt21a]

QUOTE (hardrede @ Apr 15 2004, 07:00 AM)

Well, this one hasn't been reblued, so.................. We might try the more interesting and modern approach of using "high-tech" to find it. Makes for a more interesting show, and might help CSI officers across the country.

i better tell roger cox he fibbed.............and gordon.........bad.bad.....with all these troubled minds.......and we just can't figure it out...wink!!
RoN

[colt21a]

QUOTE (hardrede @ Apr 15 2004, 01:56 PM)

2347 was reblued, not 7580!!!! Jesus, get off it!!

now we have jesus involved,does this madness ever stop???oh get a sense of humor....................it makes life much more fun..............