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History Channel And 7380 Or 7580


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#1 Guest_hardrede_*

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 08:17 AM

Talked to the Sheriff again this morning. The History Channel is coming back to shoot the Thompson's again. I explained the serial number question to him. He is going to task the person in charge of the shoot to either magnaflux, xray or ultrasound the receiver. He wasnt sure about taking it apart, but we might. We also discussed advertising the posters at the end of the History Channel show to keep everything appropriate for his department. He has to run the idea past the Commissioners to make it legal to use the funds to purchase departmental weapons, or whatever.

I will keep everyone informed about what is going on. We talked about making 2 or 3 different posters. One each of the guns separate. And then one of both guns and the FBI case.

I need input on what type of views would be best for a poster. Do you want serial number side with drum inserted, or..........????? Please let me know as this is going to happen soon.

Thanks!! smile.gif
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#2 21 smoker

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 09:23 AM

hardrede,..my opinion would be a picture similar to the one the cover of the TCA newsletter this month... left side,slightly angled so you can read the serial number and maybe the perps in the background... just some thoughts,out. wink.gif



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#3 chitowngangster

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 04:56 PM

Yes! definitely with the drum and serial number.

Mario
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#4 SecondAmend

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 07:03 AM

What number is on the trigger frame?
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#5 gijive

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 08:05 AM

While reading this debate on the questioned serial number on one of the St. Valentine's Day Thompsons, the following thoughts occurred to me and I think these facts should be considered before jumping to conclusions:

Serial number 7580 had a traceable history from Auto-Ordnance to a gun shop in Chicago that had a history of selling Thompsons that ended up being used in murders and other crimes. The original recipient of the gun was later murdered, gangland style, on the west side of Chicago. The fact the the serial numbers on the receiver and grip frame were ground off also fits the pattern of several guns sold through this particular dealer. The gun was obviously not intended for legitimate use.

Calvin Goddard, who positively identified the gun ballistically, also performed the acid raising of the serial number which was a common way of restoring grounf off serial numbers on weapons. Having some knowledge of forensics, I can tell you that the raised serial number would have been studied under a microscope after the acid treatment, not just observed with the naked eye. Based on the number they observed (7580) Auto-Ordnance records indicated the gun was shipped on a particular date to the Chicago gun dealer.

The Cook County Coroner's Jury held hearings over a several month period extensively reviewing the history and sale of numerous Thompson submachine guns sold in the Chicago area that were used in several murders and took testimony from several individuals involved in the illegal sale of these guns. The transcripts of these hearings still exist and have been studied by several Chicago gangster researchers including author Bill Helmer and Thompson researcher Gordon Herigstad. All the available documents regarding the recovery of the gun in Fred Burke's possession list the serial number as 7580.

The gun has been in the possession of the Berrien County Sheriff's Department for all these years with ample opportunity for someone responsible for the gun to have noticed the discrepancy in the serial number. If the gun is registered on a Form 10 as previously mentioned, it should be a simple matter to check the paperwork to determine the registered number.

Gordon Herigstad's Colt Thompson Serial Number book has been exhaustively researched and contains much more detail regarding the tracking of the Thompsons used in the massacre than is listed here. His book also has no information listed for serial number 7380, which indicates that the gun has never surfaced in the years since Gordon started his research and apparently no Auto-Ordnance shipping records exist regarding that particular serial number. Cox's book from the early 1980's and HIlls book also do not list serial number 7380.

The point is, that I find it unlikely that Calvin Goddard, who positively identified the slugs and shell casings through the use of ballistics would make such a simple mistake as misreading one of the digits in the serial number. It is also entirely possible that the barrel was removed during the initial investigation and the number verified.

Like Hardrede previously stated, before we rewrite history, I'm sure a more detailed examination of the ground off number will reveal that the forensic experts of the day had it right all along.




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#6 Guest_hardrede_*

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 08:16 AM

According to the BCSD, the barrel has never been removed. But it would be interesting to find that the serial number is different than the available technology was able to verify. I am not doubting the veracity of any of the researchers, nor their techniques. I respect their efforts and their professionalism in doing the exhaustive research in getting this information.

But if we can use a non-invasive technique to verify, and then show the serial number, it would make the story even better. I think that it would make for an interesting addition to the History Channel show if we can verify the serial number using modern forensics.
It might even generate more discussion on how to find serial numbers on other weapons that have been defaced. The BCSD showed me a Spitfire type weapon that was used to kill a deputy. It had also been defaced. As an addition, I have talked to the sheriff about advertising the posters at the end of the show that the History Channel is working on now. They are coming back to the area to shoot the weapon again. I will keep everyone posted.

And thank you GIJIVE. I meant no slight on the evidence or professionalism of Mr Herigstad or Mr Cox. I am just trying to help the SD generate more interest in these weapons and raise funds for their equipment budget.

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#7 gijive

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 08:27 AM

Hardrede,

I know you didn't mean any disrespect to anyone involved. I applaud your efforts to generate some interest in the forensic aspects of serial number restoration.

I have a friend, who is a gangster researcher in the Chicago area, that was interviewed in the original production recently shown on the Discovery Channel and is involved in the current production you mention. I know that part of the new production is documenting the technology used at the time of the Massacre.

Looking forward to the information on the posters.
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#8 chitowngangster

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 06:18 PM

Good one Phil!
Yes ,it has been stated that Calvin Goddard wanted the coroner's jury to go ohh!! and wow!!! when he used the acid method.
He didn't want to ask the help from Colt or Thompson.(Egos).
This was mentioned in Helmer's book.Yes, i know because i got the ball rolling for the original discovery documentary (through Termite productions) to made in the first place to coincide with Bill Helmer and Art Bilek's book.I did not take part in it myself.
The infamous gun dealer was Peter Von Frantius and his gunsmith Valentine Juchs who ground off the numbers.Charged 2 dollars to remove any serial numbers.

Even if it was 7580, it is still real interesting stuff!

Gijive who's the historian Binder, Mattix,Trickel?

Hardrede pat yourself on the back for me.I thoroughly enjoy this stuff and you have made my day by posting up photos.
Let me know as i plan to buy the poster and if you want i will place a
mention on my site for others to buy posters and support your cause.

Best regards,

Mario


Best regards,
Mario

Edited by chitowngangster, 14 April 2004 - 06:21 PM.

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#9 full auto 45

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 06:23 PM

Enough about the serial number of 7580 or 7380, I just want to know does the gun have white or yellow paint in the lettering?!




ok, I'm in the corner
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#10 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 06:25 PM

Acid and white/yellow lettering don't mix.
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#11 Guest_hardrede_*

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 08:03 PM

laugh.gif LMFAO!!!!!! Well, hmmmmmmmmmm. Dont know how to respond. Must go in corner and think. I'm back. Still dont know. tongue.gif tongue.gif
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#12 colt21a

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:04 AM

umm! 7580 is around and 7530 never surfaced.......i owned #7519...i was getting close...............check the paperwork,and pull the freakin barrel already............you won't hurt it,remember its been fired and reblued already...........and defaced with grinding mark's...............

then we can put this dog to rest.........oh!!i mean COLT...
WINK!! Ron of respect...............
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#13 gijive

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 05:57 AM

chitowngangster,

John Binder is the person I was referring to. I know that he has several pictures on your site.
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#14 chitowngangster

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 06:31 AM

Yep Gijive Binder has a few on there.I try to give as much publicity to these historians and their books as possible.(for free).I got a few links for tommy gun websites by the kind gentlemen here.If any of you want to add some let me know and i'll kindly oblige. wink.gif

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#15 Guest_hardrede_*

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 07:00 AM

Well, this one hasn't been reblued, so.................. We might try the more interesting and modern approach of using "high-tech" to find it. Makes for a more interesting show, and might help CSI officers across the country.
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#16 colt21a

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 12:07 PM

QUOTE (hardrede @ Apr 15 2004, 07:00 AM)
Well, this one hasn't been reblued, so.................. We might try the more interesting and modern approach of using "high-tech" to find it. Makes for a more interesting show, and might help CSI officers across the country.

i better tell roger cox he fibbed.............and gordon.........bad.bad.....with all these troubled minds.......and we just can't figure it out...wink!!
RoN
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#17 Guest_hardrede_*

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 01:56 PM

2347 was reblued, not 7580!!!! Jesus, get off it!!
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#18 colt21a

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 02:33 PM

QUOTE (hardrede @ Apr 15 2004, 01:56 PM)
2347 was reblued, not 7580!!!! Jesus, get off it!!

now we have jesus involved,does this madness ever stop???oh get a sense of humor....................it makes life much more fun..............
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