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#21 kyle

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 07:30 AM

Okay, here's one link on the subject. Look about half way down the page.

http://p077.ezboard....icID=1493.topic

This isn't exactly the the reference I saw before. The site I was remembering actually has a scanned copy of the letter from the ATF official. If I can find it, I'll post the link. HTH.
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#22 Bill in VA

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 08:48 AM

Sure Phil, I'll back up what Kyle has written, with the regs. Regardless of what some well-intentioned (or otherwise) BATF agent may say, the USC and CFR supercede him. All C&R firearms acquired or disposed of while a person holds a C&R FFL must be logged. The regs are crystal clear on this.

CFR 178.125(f) deals specifically with C&R FFL holders and in part, "Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. " (emphasis added.) No mention about use/non-use of a C&R FFL, only that C&R A&Ds must be recorded/logged.
18 USC Ch 44 923(g)(2) says basically the same thing: "Each licensed collector shall maintain in a bound volume the nature of which the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, records of receipt, sale, or other disposition of firearms." (emphasis added.) Again, no mention of being exempted by not using your C&R FFL.

As for pre-FFL C&R firearms they do not need to be logged unless/until the C&R FFL holder disposes of them. At that point, the C&R FFL simply logs them into his book as coming from himself as acquired pre-FFL , and then logs it out immediately to the transferee (recipient.) Moreover, a C&R FFL does not log non-C&R firearms, either in or out.


"It is not a license to purchase guns within the state."

This is also not true, despite what may be written on the back of a C&R FFL. FAQ numbers (G1) and (G2) state that a C&R FFL first, applies only to transactions involving C&R firearms, and second, a licensed collector has the same status under GCA '68 as a non-licensee for all firearms' transactions that are not C&R transactions.

See CFR 178.93: "The license issued to a collector of curios or relics...shall cover only transactions by the licensed collector in curios and relics. The collector's license is of no force or effect and a licensed collector is of the same status under the [GCA] and this part as a nonlicensee with respect to (a) any acquisition or disposition of firearms other than curios or relics, or any transportation, shipment, or receipt of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce,; and (B) any transaction with a nonlicensee involving any firearm other than a curio or relic. ..."

CFR 178.93 basically says a C&R FFL is the same as any other FFL as long as the firearms acquired/disposed are C&R firearms only. Therefore a C&R FFL can receive C&R firearms via interstate commerce..

More importantly, (and to the heart of the matter regarding use only in interstate transactions of C&R firearms) see CFR 178.50 (B) : "a licensed collector may acquire curios or relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the state where the collector's license is held, and the disposition is made."

CFR 178.50 (B) specifically allows a C&R FFL holder to acquire C&R firearms intrastate and interstate. Think about in the most simple terms, a C&R FFL is an FFL that is (A) limited to C&R firearms only, and (B) is not for conducting a business. Other types of FFLs are can be used for both C&R and non-C&R firearms and are intended for a business. ("Business" and "dealer" being defined under 18USC Ch 44 921(a) (11) and (21) as somone who devotes time to buying/selling firearms with the principal objective of "livelihood and ... pecuniary gain" (i.e., trying to make a living dealing in guns.))

Edited by Bill in VA, 02 May 2004 - 08:57 AM.

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#23 LSU Tiger

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 09:19 AM

Bill, that's the chapter & verse. smile.gif
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#24 Sgt

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 09:25 AM

I was going to ask a question here, but I think the last post answered it. Never mind.
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#25 SecondAmend

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 01:46 PM

Okay, I bought a Colt Woodsman several years ago per our ordinary state pistol purchase permit procedures, before I had the C&R license. If I sell the Woodsman while the C&R license is valid, I have to log it off my bound book. even though it is never logged on. If I let the C&R license expire, I do nothing if I sell the Woodsman.
I'm confused.
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#26 kyle

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 02:21 PM

QUOTE (SecondAmend @ May 2 2004, 01:46 PM)
Okay, I bought a Colt Woodsman several years ago per our ordinary state pistol purchase permit procedures, before I had the C&R license.  If I sell the Woodsman while the C&R license is valid, I have to log it off my bound book. even though it is never logged on.  If I let the C&R license expire, I do nothing if I sell the Woodsman.
I'm confused.

You have it exactly correct; as long as this particular gun is C&R eligible.

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#27 SecondAmend

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 03:46 PM

Kyle,

Thank you for confirming what I regard as ridiculous government bureaucracy.

If I buy a gun in-state per the proper state procedure and the gun just happens to be on the C&R list, what does that have to do with anything? (rhetorical question)

Yes, the Colt Woodsman is on the ATFE C&R list. I bought it from an in-state dealer.

I think I will just keep the Woodsman and let my kids figure it out after I die.
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#28 kyle

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 04:24 PM

QUOTE (SecondAmend @ May 2 2004, 03:46 PM)
If I buy a gun in-state per the proper state procedure and the gun just happens to be on the C&R list, what does that have to do with anything?  (rhetorical question)

Once you are licensed, you just can't arbitrarily pick and choose when you will or won't utilize the rights granted by your license. You are no longer an individual. You are a federally-licensed collector and you have to abide by the applicable regulations as they are written. Like the guy said in the link I attached to an earlier post, you may be absolutely correct in saying it's a stupid rule. But once you sign on the dotted line and from the time the license is issued until it terminates, we all are obligated to comply.

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#29 Bill in VA

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 04:38 PM

"I'm afraid I cannot accept the contention that what ATFE prints on the licenses which ATFE issues is not true. It just simply is not a license to acquire guns within the state. There is no ambiguity."

Phil, you're right, there is no ambiguity in the law. At the risk of upsetting you, the ambiguity is in your misinterpreting what is written on the back of your FFL and what BATF agents have incorrectly told you.

The intention of a C&R FFL is to facilitate C&R firearms' acquisitions from out-of-state sources for the licensed collector. Looking at the back of my FFL, what I read is, "This license entitles you as a collector of firearms, classified as curios and relics, to acquire curios and relics in interstate commerce."
I fail to see how this can be construed to mean that the C&R FFL is only for use in interstate C&R firearms' acquisitions. Nowhere, either on the back of the actual FFL, in the USC, or in the CFR, do I find any reference to a C&R FFL as being limited only to interstate usage. Quite the contrary. where CFR 178.50 (B) says "any location" is, again, crystal clear. "Any location" means exactly that, any location...in-state, intrastate, your local gun store, your neighbor's garage sale, or Century Arms' warehouse. It doesn't matter.

Regardless of what is written on the back, federal law suspercedes it. Your green book and red book where included for your (and all other FFLs') reference. I highly recommend that all FFL holders spend some time and read them. Like the old saying says, "know your rights, exert your rights." Know what the law expects of us, and what we should expect from the law. (Remember too, "if cops knew the law, we wouldn't need lawyers"...or, "if cops knew the law, no one would get acquited due to a technicality.")

HTH


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#30 Bill in VA

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 08:51 PM

Phil,
Not a flame, but your lack of reading comprehension amazes me.

First, "Curio and Relic Federal Friearms License" isn't my term, it's the government's. Look it up: a type 03 FFL. As for authorites granted by "normal" (type 01/"dealer") FFLs and C&R FFLS, they are not mutually exclusive. (FWIW, "mutally exclusive" means, "A" cannot be "B", i.e., I can be a man or a woman, but not both.) A "normal" FFL is good for any and all firearms transactions, intrastate and interstate. A C&R FFL is good only for C&R firearms transactions, still intrastate and interstate. For the purposes of a C&R FFL, it is an FFL, but it's only good for use with C&R firearms. Again, read the law before you spout off, specifically, read CFR 178.50 (B). What's unclear about "any location"? It doesn't say "any location within the licensee's home state." It says "any location." What could be clearer than that?

Second, what is written on the back of an FFL is NOT law. The federal law can be found in the United States Code (USC) and the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR.) Period. Moreover, I've looked at all three of my previous C&R FFLs, and all three say the same thing: "This license entitles you as a collector of firearms, classified as curios and relics, to acquire curios and relics in interstate commerce." Again, it does not say "This license entitles you as a collector of firearms, classified as curios and relics, to acquire curios and relics ONLY in interstate commerce." At the risk of inflaming you, your saying "but it's written ont the back of my FFL" sounds like those who, when told of Catholic priests abusing little boys, say "but he's a priest! He would never do that." Since there's nothing written on the back of your driver's license that says you can drive in any state, does that mean you can not? No. read the law. The law tells you what is or is not allowed. Bottom line though, it is NOT written on the back of your FFL that you are limited to interstate C&R firearms transactions.

If a BATF agent tells you, "your MG doesn't need to be registered" or you read the Stewart ruling that seems to indicate you can build your own post 922(o) MG because you live in the 9th Circuit Court, does that mean you can? No. You are still bound by the law. The law, like it or not does supercede anything paraphrased on the back of your FFL, anything a government official tells you that contradicts the law, etc... I already quoted what is written on the back of the FFL, and I already quoted the law. Which do you think would hold up in court?

As for "a phrase in the enabling code which contradicts anything printed on the license" the law is not contradicting the writing on the back of an FFL. The writing on the back of the FFL is clarifying part of the law, specifically that a C&R FFL holder is authorized to receive C&R firearms in interstate commerce. You are starting to sound an awful lot like many other FFLs who are uneducated on the law they're expected to abide by, such as those who refuse to receive a firearm from out-of-state without an FFL from the sender, or who make C&R FFL holders go through NICS/Form 4473 for a C&R firearm, or worse, refuse to even acknowledge the existence/validitiy of a C&R FFL.

Again, for all FFL holders, it is imperative that we read and understand the law, and not just what some misguided individual BATF official or a paraphrase on the back of a piece of paper says. The USC and the CFR are the laws of this country. Being able to quote chapter and verse has saved my butt on at least two occasions. It can also help you save yours.

EOM





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