28 replies to this topic

[PATHFINDER]

Here is the best example of a non-firearm/NFA educated person f&^$!! screwing the pooch for ALL of us. "It's OK, it's a dummy receiver!!!" The operative word here being 'dummy'. I think the BATFE would frown on this.
Ebay auction

[LIONHART]

JEEZ! Yeah, someone will end up buying it, and having the authorties knocking on their door ten minutes after delivery. Not good..

[JimFromFL]

I guess i am not up to date on the laws.

Since the receiver still requires "a lot" of work to be converted into anything that fires what is the big deal? No original Thompson parts will neither work nor fit in this item.

[Sig]

For some reason this looked to me like an original receiver.
I am not able to figure it out on these pictures for positive.
Bet this is pulled from evilbay before midnight east coast time.

[REISINGSTAR]

The BATFE letter that came with my 80% finished Phila. Ordinance receiver(that I use on my display M1A1),stated that any further work and it could be considered a firearm receiver.The bolt cavity had not been machined out. I think that is where the trouble would be with this E-Bay auction.It looks like you could just drill and tap set screws to hold the barrel in place,and be ready to go.BUYER BEWARE!

REISINGSTAR

[Sgt]

Holy moly! That one looks like it could work. Hope they get that off fast before some poor novice gets burned.

Jim-- According to my research, ATF get nervous if there are any hollow cavities inside a blank receiver or if you mill a slot out the top or side. Whether it works or not would be irrelevant.

[PATHFINDER]

Hell BATFers burned a guy for saw cut Uzi kits. They bought one with a long front piece and one with a long back piece, mounted both halves on the same trigger group, added a top cover, and a little duct tape to hold 'em together and VIOLA! Instant illegal NFA importation and distribution. I remember this just hapening with PPsH kits a few months back.
This kit looks WAY to easy to rework.

[LSU Tiger]

Given the right person and a rainy afternoon...

[Bill in VA]

Well now...he says the inside of his "dummy" receiver is "smaller than an original." He also shows a bolt pictured with the "dummy" receiver, then follows it all up by saying, "everything that is pictured is included." One picture does show a bolt inside the receiver. It looks to me like he may have hogged out the inside of a duimmt steel receiver and milled a bolt down to fit it. I'd bet dollars to donuts, the BATF would have a pretty easy time convicting someone who possessed this if they chose to do so.

[TommyFan]

It might be a sting set up by the ATF. I thought dummy recievers HAD to be solid-no moving bolt that even goes partially back.

[Sgt]

I emailed the seller. He said he got it at a military show and the bolt is a dummy piece of steel that was milled to fit.

[LIONHART]

I remember a few years ago there was an individual who sent a sample of a Display Thompson Receiver to the ATFE. This Receiver had a shallow cavity, so a bolt handle and a fake smaller bolt within could be moved. The ATFE said NO WAY. Also, this could very well be an ATFE Sting Operation. I've been told of several of these operations coming out of GA , SC, and TN, FWIW.

[LSU Tiger]

As of 06:40 CDT, the auction on eBay is still going. I would not go near that thing. What about the guy that's welding receivers back together to make a dummy gun? He welds it together, cuts the end off of a bolt, welds it into the forward part of the receiver, and the bolt body can still travel. That's trouble, too.

[Carbine1]

I thought the stamping looked like it was done by hand, improper leading between the letters and some are not straight. Hardrede's point of the lack of a feed ramp confirm's its probably not an original. "Fairburn" GA? Is that town name a coincedence or an indication of something else?

[REISINGSTAR]

I agree that it is the smart thing to do avoiding this auction.But isn't it a shame it has to be so.That receiver would make a really neat and harmless display item.

I really hope this is not a sting operation.What a horrible waste of our taxes to pursue the buyer of this auction.What do you think the odds are that a true criminal would want to go to all this effort to get a FA weapon??

REISINGSTAR

[PATHFINDER]

In the machine tool industry every operation is figured by time and time =money. Lets say that a 1/2 inch hole through 1 inch cold rolled steel=3 min=$2.50. This type of formula is how the BATF figures thier idea of percentage of work needed to complete something. 80% machined means just that: 80% of the time requiered to complete the item has been invested or 80% of the work has been done. It does not matter where the machining is done if you have gone PAST the 80% of machining operations needed to complete (read this as equaling time requiered to finish) the receiver you have violated the law. If you had no mag well, ejector hole, ejection port or a barrel opening, but you had the bolt cavity and external dimentions machined, the BATF still might consider this less than 80% machined. Philadelphia Ord. pieces have every thing done EXCEPT the bolt cavity. The BATF considers this to be the final 20% requiered to complete the piece. On the auction item you have to remove considerably less material and take less time than you would for a bolt cavity and it would be done. IMHO the BATF would consider this item more than 80% machined. Let's not get fancy here, you just need to weld the barrel on!!!!
Also. the markings are obviously hand stamped so I think this is a fako receiver. The bolt may be a dummy (now), but why does it have near perfect sear engagement notches machined? In adummy gun wouldn't it sufice to have the sear just engage the front of the bolt? This seems like a huge pain to machine just to make a dummy gun.

[REISINGSTAR]

Pathfinder-Good points!I hadn't thought about quantifying the BATFE 80% criteria that way.Perhaps the fellow took a real bolt and machined the sides to narrow it,and then turned the round section to remove the extractor groove,and round off the end??A RISKY MOVE,but with probably harmless intent.

BTY,I know the guy that makes the "display" subguns by re-welding the receivers.He is a very reputable antique arms dealer. I am sure his intent is only to recreate historic display pieces. Hope no harm comes to him or his customers.

REISINGSTAR

[Tman]

Reisingstar hit it on the head. It all comes down to intent. That's how we look at all potential cases. That's the standard that the US Attorney looks at when accepting cases for prosecution.

Hardrede is correct when stating that the law reads 'readily restorable'. The wonks at Firearms Tech look at how easy or difficult an item is to be 'readily restored' to expel a projectile. Starting with hand tools and advancing up to machine tools, they look at how John Q. Public with average skills may be able to make it work.

[giantpanda4]

Pathfinder - where did you get that the ATF uses a formula as you examplified? I remember Doug Richardson going on about what is an 80% reciever in an old post, and there was no mention of this type of formula. Where did you read that?

[PATHFINDER]

The formula comes from drinking buddy of mine who is in the lead agent in the Detroit office of the BATFE. Interesting federal procedural documents laying around in his office/house. He is formerly of the tech branch in Washington. Being from Detroit (and a fine machinist) he was one of the guys who whould pysicaly demonstrate HOW a weapon could be modified, for evidence federal court cases. This work is done in a reasonably well equiped machine shop in the Washigton area. He was in on the wire cutter conversion of the Tech-9. He is also the guy who keeps tabs on our local genius WHO SWEARS HE HAS FOUND THE LOOPHOLE THAT MAKES SILENCERS LEGAL!!
'Redily restorable' implies that it once was a weapon. 'Manufacture' implies made from scratch so to speak. This receiver was manufactured. Yes, I know these two words can mean other things and it is all up to the the lawyers.... BUT, when you are caught with your dummy gun and the field agents get you to sign a letter of forfiture for it (and any other weapons they find) just to keep from going to a "federal pound me in the a## prison"* to wait for your court date.... no matter how right you are you will not get your stuff back. And yes, people sign these things, all the time. Funny thing that.

As for the 80% thing not existing, contact Philladelphia Ord. for a copy of thier letter from the BATF permitting manufacture of thier receiver blanks and all will be revealed, and the pertinant sections of the USC etc. will be sited ther in.

Michelangelo once said he did not sculpt a figure from stone, but rather he merely chiped away the excess stone to reveal the figure within the stone. The BATFE has real clear lines 'bout how much chippin' one can legaly do!!



* Quote taken from the film'Office Space'