Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Wwii: Naval Vickers 7.9mm & Tommy 8.8mm


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 Drebbel

Drebbel

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3 posts

Posted 23 May 2004 - 09:24 AM

Ahoy everybody,


I found the following text in a naval officers (submariner) WWII notebook,



QUOTE
Thompson sub machine gun 45 c 8.8 mm, 296305, 105333, 14491 mod u.o. 1941


The text "u.o." is not really clear and could have been misread by me.

Does any one know where to find an image of this gun and or have more info on this gun ?

It supposed to be aboard a Dutch submarine in WWII. Would this be a weapon that was kept down below and mounted on some kind of 'tripod' on the bridge when needed? Or was this a type of weapon that shore parties would take along?



QUOTE
Vickers 7.9 mm, 0.303" 60 #1, 1 type A, #3365, $33529, #34692


The text "60" is not really clear and could also be "GO" as well.

Does any one know where to find an image of this gun and or have more info on this gun ?

It supposed to be aboard a Dutch submarine in WWII. Would this be a weapon that was kept down below and mounted on some kind of 'tripod' on the bridge when needed ? Or was this a type of weapon that shore parties would take along ?



Thanks in advance for your help


Edited by Drebbel, 23 May 2004 - 10:59 AM.

  • 0

#2 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2948 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 May 2004 - 09:58 PM

Hi Drebbel,
Welcome to the Thompson Board. The Thompson Submachine Gun is the type of weapon that shore parties would have used. I have never heard of a Thompson being tripod mounted on a submarine. It appears the three numbers in your post, 296305, 105333, 14491, may be serial numbers of specific Thompson guns. If so, 14491 could be the serial number of an early Colt Thompson. Is it possible for you to post the actual cite from the naval officers WWII handbook that references this quote. Someone else will have to answer about the Vickers. I wonder if the numbers cited in the Vickers quote may be serial numbers?

  • 0

#3 Drebbel

Drebbel

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3 posts

Posted 24 May 2004 - 02:08 AM

Ahoy TD and others,

Thankds for the help.

The quote is NOT from a handbook but from an officers personal notebook.

user posted image

With tripod I meant to ask if this type of was was generally used on the bridge by being brought up from down below and being mounted on the bridge somewhere/somehow

Would be great if one of you guys could track those serial numbers (if that is what they are) down.

Any comments on the "45 c 8.8 mm" part and the text "mod u.o. 1941" ?

Edited by Drebbel, 24 May 2004 - 02:10 AM.

  • 0

#4 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2948 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 May 2004 - 07:06 AM

The Thompson Submachine Gun would be an excellent weapon to have on the bridge. However, it would be a hand held submachine gun. I have never seen or heard of a military mounted Thompson. Pictures exist of the Thompson mounted in airplanes and on motorcycles when it was first offered on the market (1921), however, this use was experimental (airplanes) or very limited (motorcycles). None of these mounts are known to exist today. My guess is the markings "45 c 8.8 mm" and "mod u.o. 1941" represent Dutch Military/Navy nomenclature markings for this weapon. The Thompson is chambered for .45 ACP ammunition - ACP means: Automatic Colt Pistol. I suggest researching Dutch military sources and see if the Thompson was ever adopted as a standard or limited standard weapon in the Dutch military (Navy). If so adopted, it was probably given a Dutch name and nomenclature. A clue may be the 1941 date. Perhaps the Thompson was adopted by the Dutch Navy in 1941 and is referred to as the Model of 1941 - just a guess on my part. The 8.8mm may be some metric measurement of the .45 ACP round - again, just a guess on my part.
If any military museums exist in the Netherlands, I would check to see if a Thompson is on display or in inventory. If the numbers cited in the officers personal notebook are indeed serial numbers, perhaps one or more of these Thompsons still exist today.
Let us know what you find out - especially if you find a museum that has a Thompson on display.

  • 0

#5 john

john

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 552 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota

Posted 24 May 2004 - 08:16 AM

My take on this....
8.8mm gotta be pretty close to .45 cal....probably metric conversion. 45c - "c" obviously stands for cartridge.
As for the three numbers, there were three guns.
And the mysterious U.O.?? How about A.O.?? and procured (or issued??) in 1941? I believe this would be consistent as I believe (without digging out the books) that Auto-Ordnance had produced 1928 (A.O.) models through those serial numbers by 1941 at the Bridgeport plant and all could have been serial numbered A.O. XXXXX.

It'd be cool if my guns serial number was one of those. but alas, it is not! dry.gif

Anyone else have a theory??

john


  • 0

#6 Drebbel

Drebbel

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3 posts

Posted 24 May 2004 - 09:14 AM

Thanks for all the info guys !

- - - The Vickers

In a Dutch book about Dutch Navy firearms I just located some info.

Might be of interest to you all.

Vickers 7.9 No.2
System: Vickers-Maxim
Since: 1927
Cooled: Air
Soeed: +/- 550 s/m
Feed: Band
Cal: 7.9 mm
Length: 107 cm
Barrel: 72.5 cm
Weigth: 15.4 kg
Number: 17

Could this be the same gun as is listed in the quoted WWII notebook ?

The 2 (in 7.9 mm No.2) might be a Dutch designation and contradicts the info I quoted (7.9 mm No.1), the designation 7.9 No.1 is also listed in the Dutch Navy fire arms book but is used for a Lewis type MG.

Unrfortunately the book also states that the Vickers 7.9 mm No2 gun was for airplanes.

It also states that in the early 1930's the guns were transferred to the East Indies and some others PROBABLY scrapped.

But maybe this gun (as quoted from the note book) could not have been official Dutch Navy. maybe the gun was supplied while this submarine was in the UK. I can imagine in WWII guns were handed out like warm bread and nobody really kept track of who got what,


- - - The Thompson

In a Dutch book about Dutch Navy firearms I just located some info.

Might be of interest to you all.

Several Thompson model 1928 were used by Marines on Java (no year given), they got it from the KNIL (Dutch East Indies Army), the KNIL got it from UK War Office. They do not mention it being supplied to the submarine service. They also do not provide any techn. info on the gun

The book has a photo of the gun, but unfortunately I seem unable to find my scanner cable :-(

There are photos of the gun with a 'stick' as well as drum magazine.

- - -


QUOTE
8.8mm may be some metric measurement of the .45 ACP round


1 Inch = 25.4 mm

There fore:

8.8 mm = 0.346 Inch
0.45 Inch = 11.43 mm

So that is not a match :-(

QUOTE
I believe this would be consistent as I believe (without digging out the books) that Auto-Ordnance had produced 1928 (A.O.) models through those serial numbers by 1941 at the Bridgeport plant and all could have been serial numbered A.O. XXXXX.


When I look at the scan it does not really look like A.O., but maybe the guy made a typo. ?!

Drebbel

Edited by Drebbel, 24 May 2004 - 09:17 AM.

  • 0

#7 john

john

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 552 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota

Posted 25 May 2004 - 09:56 PM

DOH!
What a blunder!!
Can't imagine I posted that 8.8 mm (less than a 9mm, for cripes sake!!) "gotta be pretty close to a .45"!!.
Hah! blink.gif
Was my brain disconnected OR WHAT??

AND there wasn't even any alcohol involved!!!

Guess I gotta think about hitting the basic math books again.....I must be gettin' old, eh??
Keep me away from the reloading bench, folks!!


john (of questionable mathematics ability, Ha ha ha!!) huh.gif
  • 0

#8 john

john

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 552 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota

Posted 26 May 2004 - 04:45 PM

Phil.
The reason I was so hard on myself is that I have been into reloading for over 15 years and should have known better!!
This was simply a case of "DOH"!! (extreme brain-fart!!)

I'll do better next time.....I promise!! dry.gif

john
  • 0

#9 Fullauto

Fullauto

    New Member

  • Regular Group
  • 9 posts

Posted 31 May 2004 - 08:44 AM

The Vickers could have been the GO or K type. These were the gas operated aircraft machine guns with a top mounted drum.
Just a thought.
  • 0

#10 Bisley45

Bisley45

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 602 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois ( Gun Owner's Hell )
  • Interests:Thompsons, 1911's, Collect & Shoot Colt Pistols and Revolvers, American Civil War, anything that shoots

Posted 02 June 2004 - 10:57 AM

45ACP = 11.25 x 23mm

this is what the round was listed as in Norwiegan and Arginian 45 1911's

for those who like wierd trivia and may find themselves overseas trying to find a round that is a little hard to come by outside our hemosphere.

BB
  • 0

#11 Waffen Und Bier

Waffen Und Bier

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 645 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Like the name says "Guns and beer" (and really hot chicks who like guns and beer).

Posted 02 June 2004 - 11:29 AM

Could it be U.D. 42 (United Defense), the one shown on the cover of Frank's US SMG book on this website? That date looks like possibly 1942 What is the date of the entry.

Maybe that isn't 8.8mm. Are there any other known 8's on the page to compare to? I'm sure the .45 c means .45 caliber,
  • 0