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Wonder why we didn't see similar posts when IMA introduced their canvas gun cases? My guess is because you can readily tell the difference between the IMA case and an original. Yet there are still bandits even yet trying to sell the IMA case as an original. My point is that regardless if Gordon had made a close reproduction versus an exact duplicate there would still be some bandit that would try to pass it off as original. So why not go ahead and make it right. Also be aware that the duplicate boxes are numbered and there is more than likely a record of who they went to. The number is not on the metal box itself but on the cardboard shipping container. It is also marked with the year of production (2004).

Maybe if record had been made of all of the originals before the duplicate box was introduced there would be less concern with this. The record/list, after all, would be very short.

The duplicate boxes in no way reduce the originality of the original boxes. The collectors who have the originals know what they have. They were not selling these kits before the duplicates were introduced and I'll bet they won't be selling them now (if I am wrong and there is someone who wants to sell their original kit, let me know).

Now that the duplicates are out, there seems to be some concern that the originals might not be worth "big bucks"? The value of an original kit to a real collector is not measured in "big bucks". They won't sell them for ANY price. Not for $25 and not for $5000. Hell, no originals were for sale before the duplicates were introduced, why would a collector want to sell his original now?

However, suspose a collector had a couple of originals and wanted to sell one of them. What effect will the presence of the duplicate boxes have on his sale? This is not going to be as easy as it was before and he is not going to get the small fortune that he might have gotten before. I suspect that if he can convince the buyer that the kit is original (which should not be that difficult if he is honest) he will still fetch a fair and reasonable sum for it. The buyer, if he is a real collector and who has been looking for an original kit for years, will treasure his original kit and will not sell it for $25 or for $5000, regardless of what he paid for it.

 

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I agree with Melvin, Arthur and Tommygun about some type of ID stamp. Once someone "ages" one of the boxes, how are you going to tell it from an original if you haven't seen but a handful over many years?

 

And I agree with 'The Moor' about "the duplicates not reducing the originality of the originals" but isn’t this a part of the collector market whether we like it or not. Paintings have been duplicated going way back. Whenever a particular item grows in demand and then goes into that upward spiral of value, it is more than likely subject to first, reduced grading standards then second, the probability of knock off.

 

Board guys have talked about Vettes before. You can buy an increasingly wide variety of replacement parts for them. When you bought that sharp 1966, 427 coupe last year that was close to mint, was it really? Or was it a burned out wreck eight years ago and brought back, not with NOS (new old stock) parts but with brand new replacements. It still cost you over 50k or whatever. Did you know? Do you care? The fever (greed) is running high! Some collectors do and some could care less. You got one. Check it off. What’s next on the list?

 

Numismatics, antiques, watches, hell, even Pokemon was getting knocked off at their peak. As collectors, it makes the hunt (for original stuff) more difficult but sometimes...the replacement “fills the hole” and maybe our "thirst" until an original can be found, if ever.

 

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If you don't like it, don't buy one, and if you do, put your own mark on it. And to even suggest Gordon is in some way dishonest and unethical, IS unacceptable. I just can't believe it. There aren't very many folks producing GOOD quality items for the Thompson Community, and when someone doe's, sooner or later he's rediculed for it.
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Devlin,

If GH said he would now stamp his initials or number the boxes would you send yours back (S/H reimbursed by GH), for that application? Had he marked them accordingly to begin with would you have bought it? It is not that GH is dishonest, but some individuals whom the boxes find their way to may not have GH's good intentions.

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Phil, you asked whether or not, I would crank out Stocks and sell them as real. Of course I wouldn't. Gordon isn't producing Boxes and selling them as originals either. From readiing your above post, it's my understanding that everyone in your opinion that has aquired one of these Boxes are bad or dishonest for not stamping replica (Or any kind of identifying mark) on their boxes? You stated where you stood on this topic earlier on in the thread, but decided to continue. Everyone I'm sure, read your opinion, and there was no need for further redicule. Nor Sir, have I ever sold anything that was not as I described it to be. . Arthur, no I would not send mine back to Gordon if he offered to stamp them. Why? They wouldn't be a true replica of an original, thus why would I want one?
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QUOTE
I would not send mine back to Gordon if he offered to stamp them. Why? They wouldn't be a true replica of an original, thus why would I want one?

 

Devlin,

Well, if you already know that it is a replica, and you would never sell it as an original, how would some unobtrusive mark made by the manufacturer detract from the box's intended purpose which is to fill the space in a police/FBI case? I mean you were selling a Colt 1921 buttstock and hardware without an anchor or nickel release latch. Since I assume you bought that stock in that condition, absolute authenticity is not a prerequsit for your collecting purposes.

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Ron,

Since GH is making a deal on the purchase of more than one it doesn't seem likely that he only turned out 10 of them. That would not even make it worthwhile for the manufacturer on that limited basis. He would surely make an amount approaching the number of serial number books he put out which must be over 200 copies, or else why contact all those who own his books never mind advertising on the boards and elsewhere?

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I wasn't really interested in one of these.... but if it pisses off m/b member #122 I might just do it for the entertainment value alone..... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
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Arthur, that Colt 1928 Stock was/is and always will remain 100% authentic. Indeed, it had been refinished, and was advertised as such. Yes, I purchased that Stock as being refinished, and advertised it in the exact same condition as I received it. You say authenticy is not prerequsit to my collecting, but I assure you it is. If I pay for an Original in Original Condition, I expect it to be that way. If an item has been restored, that's fine too. When I sell something, I state with 100% honesty the conditon of said item. I've owned many Colt Stocks, I know what is authentic, and what is not. That Stock Latch was probably blued at one time or another (Indeed, they can be blued) I stated the Anchor was pretty much gone due to the refinishing that the Stock received. That Stock Arthur, being refinished, was priced accordingly. I have dealed with quite a few folks from this Forum and elsewhere, with no complaints whatsoever.
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Here, Here Murray and Ron! I know all about small production tooling. Sometimes your lucky if you break even on those things. To those out there that bitch and piss and moan about the repro box, piss off and don't buy it. I'll buy one. Hell I may buy 2. They'll look great in my REPRODUCTION FBI case! Gordon is a great guy. At least he's doing something we wish we would of thought of years ago. And they are being made in the USA, are those IMA 1921 carry case/ holsters?
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Arthur: I don't think that the difference is there to negate the addition of a manufacturer's mark. They are none-the-less there.

 

Murray: In veiw of recent remarks, I would leave the decision to divulge this information to Mr. Herigstad. Or for the observant individual to find. It appears that most (not all) of the guys doing the complaining have original boxes.

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QUOTE
My point is that regardless if Gordon had made a close reproduction versus an exact duplicate there would still be some bandit that would try to pass it off as original. So why not go ahead and make it right.

 

The Moor,

First you state that the box is an "exact" duplicate, but now you say it has noticeable differences from the original. Seems contradictory? I can't imagine the possible harm in divulging what these differences are. Do you take issue with Devlin posting the images of GH's box without his permission? If you have his box and realize the differences but prefer to remain mute is one thing. It is an entirely different matter to advise others to also keep the secret like it was "Operation Overlord." This type of censorship appears counter productive for a TSMG info board.

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Geez, with some of the lynch mob mentality being expessed here toward Gordon you would not think that some of these members owned fully automatic firearms. If all of the CLEO's that have signed off our forms to own these weapons suddenly adopted this " What If " attitude, we would be S*** out of luck when it came to getting that formed signed.

" I'm sorry Mr. Smith, you might commit a crime with this weapon or someone might steal it from you and commit a crime with it, etc., etc........."

It's that " What If " mentality that has caused so much chaos for gun owners in this country and to apply that belief system to someone like Gordon Herigstad for the spare parts boxes is one of the most bizarre things I have witnessed on this board. To make personal attacks by attaching drug dealing, forgery and fraud innuendos is something that could be expected from Hillary Clinton and that crowd, but from this group?

One can only hope that cooler heads and reason will prevail on this issue.

When John Thompson's weapon was first introduced, the press had a field day with him. His original intentions for this firearm were honorable, good and true, yet the press labeled his design as a " Diabolical engine of death " and persecuted him for making such a terrible thing. Typical " What If " thinking and yet this board, which holds the Thompson Submachine Gun and all it's related items on a pedestal, have some who would apply that belief system towards Gordon Herigstad and his little metal boxes......................? How sad.

Randy

 

P.S. I agree with you Murray............... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif

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Murray,

You were undoubtedly one of those GH consulted about leaving a mark on the box. What was your take on that idea? Did you ever find a NZ buyer for your Irish Sword?

 

To be, nor not to be; that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to leave box marked

Or to suffer the slings and arrows of outraged collectors

 

Sorry Bill.

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Phil, you make some good points about this issue (a damn little tin box!) and you are incorrect about a few others. Let me start here:

 

QUOTE:

 

there will be some greasy low life at a gun show pass a reproduction tin Gordo box off as an original and a buyer will get screwed. It will happen. That’s not Gordon's fault, that's the greasy gun show pricks fault.

 

(I'm afraid I have to differ with you about who is at fault. It's both the person who knowingly created the situation making the fraud possible, and also the person who carried it out)

 

END QUOTE

 

Your plain wrong here and I will tell you why. From a conceptual point of view; the maker of a firearm is certainly not responsible for how that firearm is used. Doug Richardson makes reproduction Thompson barrels and does not mark them in any way. He uses M1A1 barrels and makes them how you want. Doug is not a crook. He is not creating a situation knowingly so that someone can commit fraud by claiming the barrel to be a colt 21a barrel. If some asshole claims a Richardson barrel to be an original colt barrel (bullshit anyway because Remington made all the barrels that colt placed into their receivers and all the wood they used too) he is committing fraud. Fraud has the element of scienter. This is a 50 cent word that means they bad guy knew the barrel was a Richardson and passed it off as a colt. If the bad guy REALLY THOUGHT it was an original, then he misrepresented the item. One is way worse than the other but the end result is still the same.

 

I don’t think that Gordon is some kind of crook that set out to make fake boxes to screw people. I think he did it out of pure hobby pursuit. Gordon is a Colt purist like AF, I don’t care for Colt purists like AF because they either put down every other Thompson or they think Colt is better just because it has the word Colt on it. THAT is wrong. Gordon hates the NAC Thompsons with a passion even thought Colt made the registered part, the receiver.

 

Now…

 

Most of the people who are concerned about the unmarked near perfect originals are those that already own an original one. They are concerned because they stand to LOSE MONEY on the collectors market value wise because someone can “Fill the spot in their FBI case” with a reproduction for 5% of the cost of an “Original.”

 

As stated before I care nothing about these little tin boxes. I don’t have a Colt Thompson. I won’t ever have one. You guys know that. I certainly would not buy a tin box for $275. I don’t hold it against anyone who did buy one or two of them. That’s what they love. Some of these same people would probably not give two cents for WW2 related item where I would probably pay more than a WW2 item would be worth. That’s the nature of collecting stuff like this.

 

I think Gordon should have placed a serial number on each of his new tin boxes. For starters, they would be just that much more interesting and that much more collectable. He should (he may have, I don’t know) limit his production run to say 500 boxes. He then should have shaved off and kept the first 100 and started selling at SN 101. Boxes like these would be worth 2 times the original price in less than 3 years. Soon as Gordon goes up to visit heaven, price doubles again. Plus his name will live on forever.

 

I get along real good with most everyone on our beloved board here, I have a lot of respect for Phil, but I think in this case your being a bit tough on Gordon.

 

Now picture a dead horse with everyone on the forum standing over it whacking it with a big baseball bat. That’s what we’re doing here.

 

Jr

 

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Devlin..is that....really......YOU?

 

Been kind of sitting back reading all this. Very interesting thread. Don't have much to add. Maybe we are taking a quantum approach to looking at all these reproduction parts. You think the Thompson lineage is dead. Step back and look at the broad picture. West Hurley made the guns up into the 80's. Then Kahr is trying to carry on. Doug Richardson makes some fantastic reproduction parts, as does Gordon, and even Paul (though PK does stamp his little Diamond K on them). I see this as extending the life of existing Thompsons. And, like John Jr. stated, in years to come collectors will no doubt look upon these "new" parts are Thompson collectibles. Who is to say it all had to end in 1922, or 1944, or 1980. It lives on, and hopefully forever will. If I had a Gordon box, I would have preferred his own serial number. That would have been special.

 

Just my uneducated opinion.

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Sure is a bunch of electrons burned up on this subject and the passion yikes.

Seems there are a few upset people here and frankly see both sides of the issue without getting my blood pressure elevated.

 

I for one do not believe Gordon's kits will in any way effect the collector market prices for true originals, the ones that have them are not selling. If and when any one of them decides they will let it go, well I can assure you Gordon's kit will not impact his price request and the lucky buyer will HAPPILY pay it.

 

Added Original buyers just need to be extra careful now as there are reproductions just like many other Thompson items, where that dilegence was not needed before.

 

Regardless I guarantee someone somewhere at sometime will get burned, no if and or but about it in my mind, that is the tragedy.

I purchased one of GH's kit and I am a lucky owner of an original myself. Gordon's kit will make a nice presentation piece without having a absolutely rare item out of the safe keeping. I may even buy another kit from him.

 

Added: Forgot to mention my preference would have been to mark it.

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PhilOhio

My posting was not directed towards you, it was just a summation of my feelings regarding several posts that I read about this issue. However, since you've singled me out, I'll address your points:

 

#1. No I've not gone off the deep end or flipped out. Actually, very happy!

 

#2. No, the personal attacks on this board toward Gordon are very

obvious.

 

#3. My personal yardstick is very much in tact and has been for a long

time. Pretty black & white in my view of things.

 

#4. All of the statements I made are very applicable and are not just a

collection of words thrown out there. Not good at making stuff up.

 

Just because I do not agree with you and take a firm stand does not make me a bad guy and you the good guy or visa versa. Contrary to your argument about this being a one sided issue, there are always multiple points to consider in all issues and this is a good example of such a case.

I do know Gordon Herigstad and as such, I will stand up firmly when I say that he completed this project with the utmost honesty/integrity and had no ulterior motives while doing it. Just as you disagree with my arguments, I disagree with yours and personalizing the issues will not justify or strengthen your position. I do not think that Gordon's boxes will cause forgery anymore than buying a car creates drunk driving. In both cases it is what the individual owner does with those items that is either good or bad.

I bought two of these boxes and I plan to put one in my Dillinger case ( made in the 1970's ) and the other in my Greg Fox Thompson case ( made in 2003 ), which by the way is EXACTLY like the original Thompson case I own; Infact the original key fits the new case and the new key fits the old case..............how's that for paying attention to detail and his case isn't marked either? Now I have two completed replica cases with all the internal gizmos ( full length cleaning rod, parts kit boxes with all the accessories, etc., etc. ) and that makes me happy.

I wish you a happy Memorial Day weekend.............peace be with you!

Randy

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C'mon John Jr. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif You know if you found a Colt Thompson for $500 (or maybe even $1000) languishing in a PD somewhere, you might consider buying it (even if it was to turn around quickly) http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif Admit it. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif You know you would. Don't worry, we won't tell anyone. It's okay to lown a Colt. Even though they are the "black sheep" of the Thompson family http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif
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How right you are Waffen Und Bier! I would turn that som bitch faster than you could say John T. Thompson. I would buy a Fox repro case, a Gordo tin box, several extra correct colt 20 rounders and a correct L drum. Package the whole fiasco for full market value and turn up the heat. Hell, I might even list it in a DCDEVINE "screw the buyer and seller" auction.

 

On the other hand, I could just keep the Colt for a parts gun should the ole Savage ever need any help. (yeah right!!!!!).

 

Jr http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

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Murray

I am not at home myself to check my GH box.

BUT

I think we are talking the cardboard box is numbered not the metal box.

I have been known to be wrong and I did not carefully inspect the metal box for any markings as I understood it to be unmarked.

I know the cardboard box is numbered.

michael

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I'm gonna hurt a few feelings here among the sacred cows but why is this stupid little tin box so valued in the first place? What is the real intrinsic value here? I don't have one, I don't want one, and I wouldn't get one if it were half the asking price! Those now buying these new boxes in the hope they will escalate in value as some future precious object are the greedy ones. And those that would pay thousands for an "original" either have way too much money in their pockets or are complete fools to invest in something that could easily be duplicated when the value has reached absurd heights...this item was begging to be duplicated, and I think that the only reason it hasn't been untill now is that the popularity of Thompsons has now reached almost mainstream proportions. I'm not in anyway knocking Gordon for having these made as I belive he only had good intentions, but I'm actually surprised that this little box has not been 'knocked off' before by someone with less altruist intentions ...to sucker in Thompson aficionados who 'must' have this little piece of tin. Can we all come back down to earth for awhile, the collecting 'mania' can sometimes get way out of hand. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

 

Mike Hammer

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My .02 - The tin box should be marked in some way to distinguish it from an original. Section 2913.32 of the Ohio Revised Code reads, in pertinent part "Criminal Simulation - (A) No person, with purpose to facilitate a fraud, or knowing that the person is facilitating a fraud, shall do any of the following: (1) Make or alter any object so that it appears to have value because of antiquity, rarity, curiosity, source, or authorship, which it does not in fact possess; ...". Just as sure a God made green apples there are people with greed who will pass one of these tin boxes off (sans Gordon's cardboard box) as an original. Every State has a statute similar to Ohio's. The criminal violation will be very difficult to prove. The crook will simply say he bought it at a gun show and thought it was the real thing. The prosecutor also has a problem producing an expert witness who can tell the difference and will say so under oath. The tins need to be marked. What is the harm if they are marked - then everyone knows what they are buying - not just now but in the future. If Gordon has in fact marked the tin, well done Gordon. My .02.
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