91 replies to this topic

[John Jr]

Phil, you make some good points about this issue (a damn little tin box!) and you are incorrect about a few others. Let me start here:

QUOTE:

there will be some greasy low life at a gun show pass a reproduction tin Gordo box off as an original and a buyer will get screwed. It will happen. That’s not Gordon's fault, that's the greasy gun show pricks fault.

(I'm afraid I have to differ with you about who is at fault. It's both the person who knowingly created the situation making the fraud possible, and also the person who carried it out)

END QUOTE

Your plain wrong here and I will tell you why. From a conceptual point of view; the maker of a firearm is certainly not responsible for how that firearm is used. Doug Richardson makes reproduction Thompson barrels and does not mark them in any way. He uses M1A1 barrels and makes them how you want. Doug is not a crook. He is not creating a situation knowingly so that someone can commit fraud by claiming the barrel to be a colt 21a barrel. If some asshole claims a Richardson barrel to be an original colt barrel (bullshit anyway because Remington made all the barrels that colt placed into their receivers and all the wood they used too) he is committing fraud. Fraud has the element of scienter. This is a 50 cent word that means they bad guy knew the barrel was a Richardson and passed it off as a colt. If the bad guy REALLY THOUGHT it was an original, then he misrepresented the item. One is way worse than the other but the end result is still the same.

I don’t think that Gordon is some kind of crook that set out to make fake boxes to screw people. I think he did it out of pure hobby pursuit. Gordon is a Colt purist like AF, I don’t care for Colt purists like AF because they either put down every other Thompson or they think Colt is better just because it has the word Colt on it. THAT is wrong. Gordon hates the NAC Thompsons with a passion even thought Colt made the registered part, the receiver.

Now…

Most of the people who are concerned about the unmarked near perfect originals are those that already own an original one. They are concerned because they stand to LOSE MONEY on the collectors market value wise because someone can “Fill the spot in their FBI case” with a reproduction for 5% of the cost of an “Original.”

As stated before I care nothing about these little tin boxes. I don’t have a Colt Thompson. I won’t ever have one. You guys know that. I certainly would not buy a tin box for $275. I don’t hold it against anyone who did buy one or two of them. That’s what they love. Some of these same people would probably not give two cents for WW2 related item where I would probably pay more than a WW2 item would be worth. That’s the nature of collecting stuff like this.

I think Gordon should have placed a serial number on each of his new tin boxes. For starters, they would be just that much more interesting and that much more collectable. He should (he may have, I don’t know) limit his production run to say 500 boxes. He then should have shaved off and kept the first 100 and started selling at SN 101. Boxes like these would be worth 2 times the original price in less than 3 years. Soon as Gordon goes up to visit heaven, price doubles again. Plus his name will live on forever.

I get along real good with most everyone on our beloved board here, I have a lot of respect for Phil, but I think in this case your being a bit tough on Gordon.

Now picture a dead horse with everyone on the forum standing over it whacking it with a big baseball bat. That’s what we’re doing here.

Jr

[The1930sRust]

Devlin..is that....really......YOU?

Been kind of sitting back reading all this. Very interesting thread. Don't have much to add. Maybe we are taking a quantum approach to looking at all these reproduction parts. You think the Thompson lineage is dead. Step back and look at the broad picture. West Hurley made the guns up into the 80's. Then Kahr is trying to carry on. Doug Richardson makes some fantastic reproduction parts, as does Gordon, and even Paul (though PK does stamp his little Diamond K on them). I see this as extending the life of existing Thompsons. And, like John Jr. stated, in years to come collectors will no doubt look upon these "new" parts are Thompson collectibles. Who is to say it all had to end in 1922, or 1944, or 1980. It lives on, and hopefully forever will. If I had a Gordon box, I would have preferred his own serial number. That would have been special.

Just my uneducated opinion.

[full auto 45]

Uhm, nice shirt there Mr. Hart.

[Sig]

Sure is a bunch of electrons burned up on this subject and the passion yikes.
Seems there are a few upset people here and frankly see both sides of the issue without getting my blood pressure elevated.

I for one do not believe Gordon's kits will in any way effect the collector market prices for true originals, the ones that have them are not selling. If and when any one of them decides they will let it go, well I can assure you Gordon's kit will not impact his price request and the lucky buyer will HAPPILY pay it.

Added Original buyers just need to be extra careful now as there are reproductions just like many other Thompson items, where that dilegence was not needed before.

Regardless I guarantee someone somewhere at sometime will get burned, no if and or but about it in my mind, that is the tragedy.
I purchased one of GH's kit and I am a lucky owner of an original myself. Gordon's kit will make a nice presentation piece without having a absolutely rare item out of the safe keeping. I may even buy another kit from him.

Added: Forgot to mention my preference would have been to mark it.

[Randy Lish]

PhilOhio
My posting was not directed towards you, it was just a summation of my feelings regarding several posts that I read about this issue. However, since you've singled me out, I'll address your points:

#1. No I've not gone off the deep end or flipped out. Actually, very happy!

#2. No, the personal attacks on this board toward Gordon are very
obvious.

#3. My personal yardstick is very much in tact and has been for a long
time. Pretty black & white in my view of things.

#4. All of the statements I made are very applicable and are not just a
collection of words thrown out there. Not good at making stuff up.

Just because I do not agree with you and take a firm stand does not make me a bad guy and you the good guy or visa versa. Contrary to your argument about this being a one sided issue, there are always multiple points to consider in all issues and this is a good example of such a case.
I do know Gordon Herigstad and as such, I will stand up firmly when I say that he completed this project with the utmost honesty/integrity and had no ulterior motives while doing it. Just as you disagree with my arguments, I disagree with yours and personalizing the issues will not justify or strengthen your position. I do not think that Gordon's boxes will cause forgery anymore than buying a car creates drunk driving. In both cases it is what the individual owner does with those items that is either good or bad.
I bought two of these boxes and I plan to put one in my Dillinger case ( made in the 1970's ) and the other in my Greg Fox Thompson case ( made in 2003 ), which by the way is EXACTLY like the original Thompson case I own; Infact the original key fits the new case and the new key fits the old case..............how's that for paying attention to detail and his case isn't marked either? Now I have two completed replica cases with all the internal gizmos ( full length cleaning rod, parts kit boxes with all the accessories, etc., etc. ) and that makes me happy.
I wish you a happy Memorial Day weekend.............peace be with you!
Randy

[Waffen Und Bier]

C'mon John Jr. You know if you found a Colt Thompson for $500 (or maybe even $1000) languishing in a PD somewhere, you might consider buying it (even if it was to turn around quickly) Admit it. You know you would. Don't worry, we won't tell anyone. It's okay to lown a Colt. Even though they are the "black sheep" of the Thompson family

[John Jr]

How right you are Waffen Und Bier! I would turn that som bitch faster than you could say John T. Thompson. I would buy a Fox repro case, a Gordo tin box, several extra correct colt 20 rounders and a correct L drum. Package the whole fiasco for full market value and turn up the heat. Hell, I might even list it in a DCDEVINE "screw the buyer and seller" auction.

On the other hand, I could just keep the Colt for a parts gun should the ole Savage ever need any help. (yeah right!!!!!).

Jr

[Sig]

Murray
I am not at home myself to check my GH box.
BUT
I think we are talking the cardboard box is numbered not the metal box.
I have been known to be wrong and I did not carefully inspect the metal box for any markings as I understood it to be unmarked.
I know the cardboard box is numbered.
michael

[Mike Hammer]

I'm gonna hurt a few feelings here among the sacred cows but why is this stupid little tin box so valued in the first place? What is the real intrinsic value here? I don't have one, I don't want one, and I wouldn't get one if it were half the asking price! Those now buying these new boxes in the hope they will escalate in value as some future precious object are the greedy ones. And those that would pay thousands for an "original" either have way too much money in their pockets or are complete fools to invest in something that could easily be duplicated when the value has reached absurd heights...this item was begging to be duplicated, and I think that the only reason it hasn't been untill now is that the popularity of Thompsons has now reached almost mainstream proportions. I'm not in anyway knocking Gordon for having these made as I belive he only had good intentions, but I'm actually surprised that this little box has not been 'knocked off' before by someone with less altruist intentions ...to sucker in Thompson aficionados who 'must' have this little piece of tin. Can we all come back down to earth for awhile, the collecting 'mania' can sometimes get way out of hand.

Mike Hammer

[hawksnest]

My .02 - The tin box should be marked in some way to distinguish it from an original. Section 2913.32 of the Ohio Revised Code reads, in pertinent part "Criminal Simulation - (A) No person, with purpose to facilitate a fraud, or knowing that the person is facilitating a fraud, shall do any of the following: (1) Make or alter any object so that it appears to have value because of antiquity, rarity, curiosity, source, or authorship, which it does not in fact possess; ...". Just as sure a God made green apples there are people with greed who will pass one of these tin boxes off (sans Gordon's cardboard box) as an original. Every State has a statute similar to Ohio's. The criminal violation will be very difficult to prove. The crook will simply say he bought it at a gun show and thought it was the real thing. The prosecutor also has a problem producing an expert witness who can tell the difference and will say so under oath. The tins need to be marked. What is the harm if they are marked - then everyone knows what they are buying - not just now but in the future. If Gordon has in fact marked the tin, well done Gordon. My .02.

[aut-ord-co]

In my earlier post on this thread I too said some ID would have been appropriate. But who or what is the ID going to stop? If some person down the road has the “intent” to deceive or commit fraud by “aging” these tins and passing them as originals, then a small hallmark is not going to stop anyone. It will be removed, filled, etc.

[Norm]

Just use an "Altoids" or "Sucrets" tin.

It's MUCH cheaper!

[Walter63a]

I'm going to risk offending the various government regulators (as if), politicians, etc., when I say, "Stay the hell out of honest gun owners lives!!!" That is the real reason all this controversy and bickering among friends has occured. If our government would stay out of the business of regulating and interfering with legitimate commerce, and decimating one of our fundamental human rights, as codified in the Second Amendment, then we would not be having this conversation. If this were so, Colt and Savage would most likely still be producing, "real" Thompsons and accessories, and they would be relatively cheap. Regards, Walter

P.S. While I think Kerry would be disasterous for America, I've been reconsidering support for the Libertarian Party. I have been following their convention on C-SPAN, and agree with most of their ideas and platform.

[SecondAmend]

Well-done forgeries, replicas, knock-offs, copies, new productions of out of production items (e.g., West Hurley Thompsons), etc. will always be with us.

There were forgeries and non-Van Goghs reputed to be Van Goghs while Van Gogh was still alive. At least one "Van Gogh" that sold for tens of millions of dollars is believed by many experts to be a forgery. The owner apparently refuses to let anyone examine it.

Some new production floor panels for 65-69 Mustangs and new production front fenders for Plymouth Superbirds and the similar Dodge Daytonas are better than the originals.

The artist's signature, the maker's trademark, and the like attempt but can not completely protect either the artist/maker or the buying public.

One with sophisticated enough equipment and the properly trained forensic expert could undoubtably tell a Greg Fox case from an old one and a Gordon H. parts box from an old one. The typical buyer at a gun show table probably could not but , then, it is doubtful that the typical buyer at a gun show will shell out $2500 for a parts box.

Edited by SecondAmend, 01 June 2004 - 04:49 PM.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Second Amend,
Is Van Goth related to Vincent Van Gogh?......It hardley takes a forensic expert to differentiate between a Fox FBI/PD case and an original, but repro cases made from the 1950's on might be a little tougher to spot.

auto-ord,
Filing down the metal where the mark would be is gonna leave a tell tale sign. The potential problem of fraud arises when a future GH box seller commits the sin of omission in that the seller says, "I don't know if it is original or not since I don't know anything about them, and this one came wiith a case that was incluided with a TSMG I bought."

Mike,
Intrinsic value when applied to collectables is an oxymoron. Who would pay $40K for a non-working 1920's microphone? Yet people do.

JJ & W&B,
Colt TSMG's are an acquired taste like caviar. Some pallets are best suited for tuna fish. Stock up on Miracle Whip.

[Walter63a]

Arthur, I guess you do not disagree with my point of view, based on your lack of response!! I'm for free trade, laissez-faire govt. influence, etc. I assume that we are are on the same page, based on your lack of response to my statements!! Regards, Walter

P.S. Or, maybe you enjoy the present govt. regulation, because it enhances your bottom line! Is that free-trade Arthur? Is that unfettered capitalism, or more Communist bullshit regulation? Regards, Walter

[Melvin]

WOW - ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
How many people has this Thompson bus run OVER ?. I looked back at all the posts . Did I start this? I think I did. Holy {21 Overstamp} Batman! Beat me up; hang me at high noon; drop my C DRUM. Let's see if we can get over it . Please let's end this madness. It's obvious that we all have mixed feelings over the spare parts' box issue. We are all Thompson collectors. or most of us are, and. when issues arise, it is good to see how people feel about new things that happen in our hobby. This issue has put to many people at one another's throat. If I started this, I'm truly sorry . I will put a $50 doller bill on the bar at Applebee's for Thompson beer on Thursday evening in Virginia. It's across the street from the Comfort Inn. See you there so we can air this issue out face to face (no firearms, please).

Chuck

[Melvin]

Ron,
I think you sould buy 8 or 10 or more . Some day I hope to run across one. I just hope It is not one of yours . Untill then good luck and good health.
Chuck

[Mark Layton]

Dear Fellow TSMG affectionados,

After reading all of the posts and seeing the pictures, I've decided that I've got to get one of these GH reproduction spare parts boxes. I think Gordon did an excellent job and showed remarkable wisdom in not marking the boxes. I say, well done, Gordon, my check is in the mail.

Thanks! Mark

[LIONHART]

I'm sure there will be a few unscrupulous individuals who will attempt to pass off Gordon's Box as an original. Those same types were doing so long before Gordon had introduced his. There was an alleged individual down in Texas I believe, who was selling Bogus Boxes at one time, and filling them up with the proper original contents. But the fact is, the Originals Boxes are so incredibly rare and costly, that anyone who seriously considers purchasing an Original Box, should do his/her homework before making such an expenditure.

John Jr. mentioned the Colt style Barrels produced by Doug Richardson. Could someone pass of an aged DR '21A Barrel as an authentic one? Maybe, and perhaps it has happened to an unsuspecting buyer at one time. In all hobbies this kind of thing happens. There is no stopping it, and nothing can be done about it, except for exposing the fraud and alerting others when it occurs.

A Mark in some way will not stop an individual who wants to profit from selling a Fake. If Gordon had marked his box, one who is determined enough could easily weld up the mark, refinish, and then age the box appropriately to appear like an original. Same holds true to any good Reproduced Thompson item. Marked or unmarked. There are ways around almost anything, as everyone is aware.

I don't blame Gordon from not marking his Boxes (IF indeed that is the case). It wouldn't have deterred anyone who is going to pass one off as an original. So why not have a perfect, or near perfect reproduction? If an item can be faked either way, what difference would it have made? And the majority of these boxes aren't going to be marketed as originals. They will become collectible in their own right, thus escalating in value.

It's like the old Forum Debate on what constitutes an original Thompson. Some contend if the Gun wasn't manufactured by Colt, it's a replica. Does this mean everyone who doesn't own a Colt should stamp replica on their Non-Colt Thompsons? Of course not. But there are those who actually believe this.

No matter what Hobby a person is in too, there are going to be Fakes, and the Sleaze selling Fakes. Do the Boxes that Gordon produced make it all that easier in our hobby? No. If a person is determined to rip another off with a forgery, it will happen. And having a Mark or no Mark wouldn't have changed anything.