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M2 Legal to Own?


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#1 sapperboom

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 04:49 PM

Inherited an M2 stamped carbine. Is it legal. Someone told me I need to turn it in. Before I give it to the police I want to make sure. Inland Div 7163XXX U.S. Carbine .30 M2

Edited by sapperboom, 10 March 2019 - 04:54 PM.

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#2 timkel

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 04:56 PM

Find the registration papers!
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#3 sapperboom

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 05:04 PM

There are none. The MAS36 I have has papers. But none for the Carbine. Does not look good for this rifle. Cut it in half or turn it in is only option?
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#4 Kilroy

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 05:26 PM

I’ve heard of people calling the atf and asking to research it by the serial number. It may be worth the attempt.
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#5 Sandman1957

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 05:39 PM

Sapperboom, If you do not know what Kilroy is talking about, pm me and I will assist you with contacting the NFA Division to see if it is in the registry.  There are other options, one would be to donate it to a museum.  David Albert may can assist if that is the route you will need to go.  He is active on the Carbine Collectors association and may be able to pass on some good information.  Worse case only surrender the receiver, keep all the other parts and put them onto a M1 Carbine receiver so you will still have some of the legacy that was passed down.

 

Cheers,

Sandman1957


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#6 sapperboom

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 05:45 PM

Pm sent
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#7 Sandman1957

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 06:00 PM

PM response sent.

 

NFA Division number.  (304) 616 4500.


Edited by Sandman1957, 10 March 2019 - 06:03 PM.

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#8 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 10:36 AM

Unless you know rhe name and address of the “registrant”, knowing the serial number is listed in the NFRTR does you no good. The most difficult part of trying to move an MG out of limbo is finding the name and address of the registrant. Next of kin is also very useful if it can be discovered. Personal information on registration forms is confidential tax info and cannot be obtained from ATF/NFA without legal assistance, police inquiry, etc, and then often that is very difficult. It can get very complex.
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#9 Chief762

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 12:13 PM

Is the receiver just marked M-2 and is semi-auto only or does the rifle contain the select fire parts?


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#10 JimB

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 01:45 PM

There are none. The MAS36 I have has papers. But none for the Carbine. Does not look good for this rifle. Cut it in half or turn it in is only option?

 

Being that there are paper on the MAS good chance there are for the M2 as well.

Besides being marked M2 is the gun in select configuration internally ?  If it is that sort of raises the likelihood it's registered versus one that has a semi trigger group swapped in.  

 

As you were left these items and one is papered you should search under the name of the registrant on the MAS paper

well unless the name on the paperwork differs from the late relative.

That happens too

Widow sells a registered piece of NFA to billybob's shooting buddy who sticks it in the closet

Thirty years ago I walk into a pawn shop and they have a MP44 in the rack.  Look it over, shop owner assures me it's legit and legal.  See lookee here, I have the registration paperwork and shows it to me.  Well it was a pawn that expired.  Took awhile to get it through to the clown he was in unlawful possession of a machinegun.  Ended up getting him to pull it off the rack and cleaning up his bound book.  Clued a buddy into it.  Between the pawnbroker, him and the brother of the late registrant they did get it all squared away.

Want crazy ?

The old pawnster thought he could sell it on a 4473 with the paperwork.

 

Again, over thirty years ago, the internet was a fart in the future back then and most folks knew nearly nothing about transfer procedure

 

Thing to likewise be aware of M2 marked carbines were really not all that uncommon to run into years ago at shows & shops

Treasury only started taking a seriously dim view on them in the 60s and much of that was due to the infamous Minutemen organization after they were popped off with a fair number of both stolen and converted guns

 

In the 70s the BIA supplied a fair number of Inland M2s to Indian police on Reservations.  Most of these were stripped of specific internals and over time a good share leaked off Rez sold as run of the mill carbines to Round Eyes.  We used to see that in MN and the Dakotas.  It's not like there was a great deal of oversight on Indian Country Police

 

The Museum option works too

There is a military museum on the grounds of Camp Ripley in MN that takes in unregistered military C&R NFA.  They will walk you through the process and give you paperwork for a tax deduction against the value of the piece which is likely greater than just parting it out.  ATFE is ultra cool with this option, they have been assisting in it for many years at least in this State.  The potential problem is off the streets, it's on the books as a form 10 and preserved in a government accredited museum

This of course does depend on your District of residence as the bureau isn't of the same mind nationally

As a general rule though most any museum with proper accreditation can accept unregistered weapons.

 

Local County museum had several MGs that were donations

thing was they had no paperwork on file regarding them.  In the 80s BATF assisted them in a sale of the three guns.  These were things that had been in the collection well prior to 1968.  Never did find out what workaround was done by the bureau but I do know they went out as transferables from museum inventory.

The 68' Amnesty was a crazy situation as most museums were unaware or just felt they were exempt.  Same with VFW posts that had displays.  I'm aware of a couple more cases where the bureau assisted in resolving these situations in favor of transferability so long as the item had been in the collection inventory pre 68'

 

The recognized issue was it really wasn't until the very early 70s that Treasury started creating regulation exempting museum collections

When you walk into some rural County museum and see an obscure old belt fed gun there is a high chance it came back from the great war, was donated to the historical society in the 20s and has never ever been papered.  Know of an Aircraft Parabellum that way right now.  Other early belt feds too.

It was rank common for the War Department to supply captured ordinance for Vet memorials and displays.  It was just given away for the asking.  This went on well past WWII.  Somewhere in the 60s the Department of Defense supplied it on a Loan basis retaining actual physical title.  Might even have been the 50s when that change occurred.  Thus you have two classes.  One that is the real property of a community or organization to do with as they wish, the other they have no title to, that stays with DoD.

It's a real can of worms that totally depends on status of transfer and yes folks have been busted over all this.  Mostly over getting paws on static aircraft displays or Artillery that was still under DoD manifest title

 

just a little sidebar to this discussion


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#11 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 03:02 PM

Keep in mind that ONLY the registrant of record or his legal representative has legal authority and, thus, access to ATF/NFA information.

If you received the guns as the heir to your father's estate and the executor is still around, it would be wise to involve him and see what his records hold about the MGs, if anything. Worth the search.

Also, as you may know, a carbine marked M2 is considered an MG regardless of whether the internals are select fire or not.

FWIW


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#12 JimB

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 03:28 PM

Keep in mind that ONLY the registrant of record or his legal representative has legal authority and, thus, access to ATF/NFA information.

If you received the guns as the heir to your father's estate and the executor is still around, it would be wise to involve him and see what his records hold about the MGs, if anything. Worth the search.

Also, as you may know, a carbine marked M2 is considered an MG regardless of whether the internals are select fire or not.

FWIW

 

Yes exactly

my point was if the gun has a semi TG installed it may just be something never registered and passed around years ago as a M1

 

It certainly is worth the effort to do a bit of research

too many registered C&R guns have just fallen into the black hole of Estate dispersals

damn shame that


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#13 dalbert

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 07:13 PM

Sapperboom, If you do not know what Kilroy is talking about, pm me and I will assist you with contacting the NFA Division to see if it is in the registry.  There are other options, one would be to donate it to a museum.  David Albert may can assist if that is the route you will need to go.  He is active on the Carbine Collectors association and may be able to pass on some good information.  Worse case only surrender the receiver, keep all the other parts and put them onto a M1 Carbine receiver so you will still have some of the legacy that was passed down.

 

Cheers,

Sandman1957

 

I'm not aware of any solution through the Carbine Club, unfortunately.  When it comes to M2's, the knowledge here in this forum is much greater than there, and when it comes to things like the XD M2's that were never in full auto configuration, many there tend to want to avoid the discussion.  This M2 was clearly manufactured as an M2, based on the OP's description.

 

I don't understand what the OP is talking about with the MAS36 having papers.  Maybe they live in a state where a rifle requires registration, and those are the papers to which they refer, or maybe the papers are some kind of military bringback papers.  Whatever the papers are, they almost certainly have no bearing on the M2.  The MAS36 and the M2 are two completely different firearm types.  The latter is NFA, the former is not. 

 

My suggestion is to seek legal counsel regarding the M2, in case there's anything you may be able to do that you may not be aware.  Do not delay.  Otherwise, turn it in to ATF, and if you decide to take it upon yourself to strip it of valuable parts, that is up to you, but I suggest making a decision, and acting on it quickly.   

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


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#14 JimB

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 10:07 PM

Sapperboom, If you do not know what Kilroy is talking about, pm me and I will assist you with contacting the NFA Division to see if it is in the registry.  There are other options, one would be to donate it to a museum.  David Albert may can assist if that is the route you will need to go.  He is active on the Carbine Collectors association and may be able to pass on some good information.  Worse case only surrender the receiver, keep all the other parts and put them onto a M1 Carbine receiver so you will still have some of the legacy that was passed down.

 

Cheers,

Sandman1957

 

I'm not aware of any solution through the Carbine Club, unfortunately.  When it comes to M2's, the knowledge here in this forum is much greater than there, and when it comes to things like the XD M2's that were never in full auto configuration, many there tend to want to avoid the discussion.  This M2 was clearly manufactured as an M2, based on the OP's description.

 

I don't understand what the OP is talking about with the MAS36 having papers.  Maybe they live in a state where a rifle requires registration, and those are the papers to which they refer, or maybe the papers are some kind of military bringback papers.  Whatever the papers are, they almost certainly have no bearing on the M2.  The MAS36 and the M2 are two completely different firearm types.  The latter is NFA, the former is not. 

 

My suggestion is to seek legal counsel regarding the M2, in case there's anything you may be able to do that you may not be aware.  Do not delay.  Otherwise, turn it in to ATF, and if you decide to take it upon yourself to strip it of valuable parts, that is up to you, but I suggest making a decision, and acting on it quickly.   

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

I figured he was referencing a MAS38 Dave

even examined a dewat 38 in the 80s that was referenced as a MAS36 in the associated paperwork

As we all know things happened back then


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#15 dalbert

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 11:11 AM

JimB,

An MAS38 makes sense. If he has NFA paperwork for it, I would think that paperwork probably exists for the M2. I hope it can be resolved.

David
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#16 DZelenka

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 11:27 AM

JimB,

An MAS38 makes sense. If he has NFA paperwork for it, I would think that paperwork probably exists for the M2. I hope it can be resolved.

David

One would agree with this logic; however, I bought a couple MP40s from an estate of a former SOT that had other transferable and post sample guns. They found all of the paperwork for the guns except one all matching MP40. I filed a Form 4 on it anyway figuring the paperwork had merely been misplaced. It was in fact an unregistered gun. The estate ended up stripping the gun for parts and turning the receiver i to the ATF along with the post sample guns. It was pretty sad. The guy was also the chief of police (in fact the post samples belonged to the now closed PD) and we assume that some widow gave him an unregistered bringback MP40 that he just stuck in the safe.


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#17 Sandman1957

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 09:25 AM

Unless you know rhe name and address of the “registrant”, knowing the serial number is listed in the NFRTR does you no good. The most difficult part of trying to move an MG out of limbo is finding the name and address of the registrant. Next of kin is also very useful if it can be discovered. Personal information on registration forms is confidential tax info and cannot be obtained from ATF/NFA without legal assistance, police inquiry, etc, and then often that is very difficult. It can get very complex.

BRMCII, I disagree with your initial statement that "knowing if the SN is in the NFRTR does you no good".  My recommendation is simple and straightforward.  A M2 Carbine is NFA.  The OP does not have paperwork.  He should contact the NFA Division immediately to see if the SN is in the registry.  It is, or it isn't.  If it is not, then he can arrange for them to pick it up.  They can also explain options he has for disposal, but he cannot keep it in the interim.  If it is in the registry, then he can arrange with them to pick it up while the paperwork is sorted out.  He has to do one of the two or destroy the reciever.   Keeping it in his possession while he has no papers is flirting with disaster.  

 

I whole-heardedly agree that if the SN is in the registry then getting all the paperwork sorted out will require all the things you discussed about running down the info on the last legal owner.  

 

Sapperboom, the forum would appreciate and update on what guidance the NFA Division provided you.  We try to assist folks with the best advice when in this situation.  Contacting the NFA Division is ALWAYS the first step.  If I am wrong, and not in line with the NFA Division's guidance,  I would like to update what I tell folks.  

Thanks in advance

Sandman1957


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#18 JimB

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 11:37 AM

JimB,

An MAS38 makes sense. If he has NFA paperwork for it, I would think that paperwork probably exists for the M2. I hope it can be resolved.

David

One would agree with this logic; however, I bought a couple MP40s from an estate of a former SOT that had other transferable and post sample guns. They found all of the paperwork for the guns except one all matching MP40. I filed a Form 4 on it anyway figuring the paperwork had merely been misplaced. It was in fact an unregistered gun. The estate ended up stripping the gun for parts and turning the receiver i to the ATF along with the post sample guns. It was pretty sad. The guy was also the chief of police (in fact the post samples belonged to the now closed PD) and we assume that some widow gave him an unregistered bringback MP40 that he just stuck in the safe.

 

This is more common than most folks know with LE guns

 

Couple things

In old school police mindset they were often above the law

used to be many unregistered guns could be found circulating among the police

it wasn't so much some old Widow woman turning something in as it was Joe the elderly combat vet.  Health goes bad, Joe knows he has a problem in the closet and call Butch, the town cop he knows from the local VFW

Other cases the grandson gets snagged shooting something he snagged from the Grand parents home.  Cop shakes a finger at the young Man, takes the gun and end of story.

This was just how things worked well up through the 1980s

 

The other thing is there was no oversight on what LE had in inventory

Back in the 70s the County Chief of Deputies dug into his own pocket to purchase a small number of 1928 Navy Overstamps for the Sheriffs office

Well when he left his position the guns moldered in a cell in the Jail, all pretty messed up.  Sheriff asks pops if I'd be interested in trying to clean them up.  Sure

So the SO sends an officer by who drops several Thompsons off at my parents home !

Dad was Federal LE so in rural Cop think, no foul

 

Anyways two of those three SMgs are now missing, internal theft and most likely by two retiring Sheriffs

again this was real common LE behavior

Seem to recall there was a bit of that in that haul of Thompsons some years ago out of the St. Louis ? PD

Bunch of guns but there were a number that just grew legs and vanished.

 

Used to know a retired Detective with the LAPD.  Moved to Minnesota to fish

He had a really nice TSMg

Said he checked it out in the early 60s, just never turned it back in when he retired in the late 70s

Lord knows where that ended up when he passed in the 90s

 

Don't even think things are greatly different today

Government posts a regular report on the numbers of "lost" guns in Federal LE inventory

pretty significant numbers of MGs

How do you misplace a M16 or MP5 ?

 

Anyways just some thoughts on what happened in your situation


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#19 DZelenka

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 02:08 PM

 

JimB,

An MAS38 makes sense. If he has NFA paperwork for it, I would think that paperwork probably exists for the M2. I hope it can be resolved.

David

One would agree with this logic; however, I bought a couple MP40s from an estate of a former SOT that had other transferable and post sample guns. They found all of the paperwork for the guns except one all matching MP40. I filed a Form 4 on it anyway figuring the paperwork had merely been misplaced. It was in fact an unregistered gun. The estate ended up stripping the gun for parts and turning the receiver i to the ATF along with the post sample guns. It was pretty sad. The guy was also the chief of police (in fact the post samples belonged to the now closed PD) and we assume that some widow gave him an unregistered bringback MP40 that he just stuck in the safe.

 

This is more common than most folks know with LE guns

 

Couple things

In old school police mindset they were often above the law

used to be many unregistered guns could be found circulating among the police

it wasn't so much some old Widow woman turning something in as it was Joe the elderly combat vet.  Health goes bad, Joe knows he has a problem in the closet and call Butch, the town cop he knows from the local VFW

Other cases the grandson gets snagged shooting something he snagged from the Grand parents home.  Cop shakes a finger at the young Man, takes the gun and end of story.

This was just how things worked well up through the 1980s

 

The other thing is there was no oversight on what LE had in inventory

Back in the 70s the County Chief of Deputies dug into his own pocket to purchase a small number of 1928 Navy Overstamps for the Sheriffs office

Well when he left his position the guns moldered in a cell in the Jail, all pretty messed up.  Sheriff asks pops if I'd be interested in trying to clean them up.  Sure

So the SO sends an officer by who drops several Thompsons off at my parents home !

Dad was Federal LE so in rural Cop think, no foul

 

Anyways two of those three SMgs are now missing, internal theft and most likely by two retiring Sheriffs

again this was real common LE behavior

Seem to recall there was a bit of that in that haul of Thompsons some years ago out of the St. Louis ? PD

Bunch of guns but there were a number that just grew legs and vanished.

 

Used to know a retired Detective with the LAPD.  Moved to Minnesota to fish

He had a really nice TSMg

Said he checked it out in the early 60s, just never turned it back in when he retired in the late 70s

Lord knows where that ended up when he passed in the 90s

 

Don't even think things are greatly different today

Government posts a regular report on the numbers of "lost" guns in Federal LE inventory

pretty significant numbers of MGs

How do you misplace a M16 or MP5 ?

 

Anyways just some thoughts on what happened in your situation

I have found unregistered old MGs in LE inventories in the past. No way to get them out. Bummer. 


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#20 sapperboom

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 07:18 PM

receiver was cut in three pieces and turned over to the local pd. There were no full auto parts. It was in semi auto configuration. The rest was given to a collector near FT. Bragg. The MAS36 was just that, a bolt action Mas 36 from France. The paper work was from the commander transferring ownership to the soldier upon his retirement. There was no paperwork for the M2 leading me to believe it was either stolen out of the arms room or given with out consent. Either way he was scared and decided to destroy it. It was a nice rifle. Besides the M240B, 249SAW and some foreign full autos, I have never seen one of those. History in my hands. I was sad when he took the Sawzall took the sawzall to it. BTW the saw struggled to cut that steel.
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