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Opportunity if anyone plays with 3D printers


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#21 DougStump

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 09:43 AM

Garrettj,

PM me your address and I'll send you a couple of sleeves to try. How close are the dimensions between the Promag and original UZI mags? These sleeves fit pretty tight on the Promag, removable but the mag ain't gonna fall out.
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#22 GarrettJ

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 02:52 PM

PM sent. 

 

I measured 6 of the Promags plus the three IMI Uzi mags that I own. I just hit several points along the upper couple inches of the mag and recorded the high and low reading for each mag. So the measurements below show a range for each mag. I measured width and front-to-back. 

 

Promag

.803-.805 x 1.334-1.340

.810-.815 x 1.335-1.340

.824-.832 x 1.335-1.341

.805-.815 x 1.330-1.338

.802-.819 x 1.331-1.339

.800-.814 x 1.340-1.345

 

IMI

.831-.843 x 1.325-1.328

.825-.832 x 1.325-1.327

.825-.829 x 1.326-1.328

 

So we will have to see if the sleeve will slide onto the IMI mags. If you think it would help, I can send you one of the IMI mags to model a sleeve on. And then you could see if that would still work on the Promags. 


Edited by GarrettJ, 06 September 2020 - 03:47 PM.

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#23 DougStump

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 03:43 PM

So the IMI mags are wider and shorter, they would require a different sleeve and with the increased width it might not be possible.  I'll get you a couple of sleeves in the mail this week to test.


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#24 nchunter182

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Posted 12 September 2020 - 01:47 PM

Keep us informed of your progress. I only have one 12 round mag and spend far more time loading than shooting!


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#25 GarrettJ

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Posted 12 September 2020 - 06:42 PM

Ok - so I got some of the prototype mag sleeves from DougStump to try out today.  The first mag ran flawlessly.  After that, not as much.  

 

However, it seems I had to tweak all of my Reising mags initially in order to get them to run. This was true for both H&R and aftermarket mags.  So I adjusted the Uzi mags out a little and tried again. I found the feed lips need to be at least .450" apart at the front, and .460" might be better.  Some mags were a little narrow as received.

 

After that they ran great.  I'm going to have to try some more, but so far it's looking really good!

 

Also, the plastic used for the sleeve seems fairly durable. I was worried about wearing out the mag catch hole after repeated insertions/removals.  I'll have to try shoving one of the mags in and out several times, but so far it seems just barely scuffed.  Again, I think we may have something here.  

 

Video below.  Skip to about the 3-minute mark to see the mags running. Before that shows some of the failures prior to adjusting the feed lips.

 

https://youtu.be/TUHSAPprCv0


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#26 Ryo

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:56 AM

Or you can just call Keystone and beg them to make more, or offer to buy the tooling that's already done? 

If I were printing it might as well be in steel, not plastic, JMHO?

 

Just saw some sell at auction for under 100, even though I'd never pay that much, seem to be no shortage from what I've seen?

I had contacted Keystone a few months ago and they said they would produce more.. but when they didn't know.

 

I love the creativity of this idea. I've spent a lot of money on some Reising magazines that I could have saved!

I'm curious how well Uzi drum magazines would work.. 

 

BTW what 3D printer are you using? 


Edited by Ryo, 15 September 2020 - 01:00 AM.

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#27 DougStump

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:30 PM

For those interested in the technical side.  I designed the Reising sleeve in 3D with AutoCAD Fusion 360, they kindly have a free license for small (home) users, and it creates an “STL” file.  There is a steep learning curve to Fusion, kinda like standing at the base of Mount Everest and looking up at the peak!  The STL is then imported into another program called a Slicer that looks at the thing and slices it into many layers from the bottom to the top (the sleeve has 301 layers), figures out what is solid and what isn’t, and creates the instructions (toolpath) for the printer.  There is a boatload of settings that can be adjusted, temperature, feed rate, infill, shell thickness.  Way too many to count.  Once you (hopefully) have it set up the way you want, save the toolpaths to an SD card.  Stick the SD card in the slot in the printer and print.  I have a Flashforge Creator Pro printer, it uses spools of plastic filament that are melted around 230C depending on the type of plastic, then extruded through a tiny nozzle (.4mm).  It squirts out the plastic where needed, and not where unneeded, to make the thing.  The printer sounds like an alien band doing a cover of Pink Floyd!

 

There are several different types of plastic filament that can be used, I’m using ABS for the sleeves.  Now the plot thickens, the different types of plastic require different settings.  The same type of plastic from different manufactures sometimes require different settings.  Different color filament of the same plastic from the same manufacturer can have different settings.  Oh, my aching head!  The first test sleeve was printed with the filament that happened to be loaded in the printer (orange ABS from Kodak), and fit wonderfully tight but didn’t look so great.  So, I loaded up a spool of black ABS from Flashforge.  Unfortunately, the Flashforge filament has different shrinkage characteristics that the Kodak and the sleeves weren’t as tight as I wanted.  Ordering some black filament from Kodak solved that issue without having to go back and change dimensions.

 

The result of all this is the ability to design and create something very cheaply.  It took maybe an hour or so to design up the sleeve (fortunately I hit it right the first time) and they take about an hour and a half to print.  I’m still struggling with fit tolerance, loose fit, slip fit, tight fit, it ain’t gonna fit!  Note, while I can easily print multiple sleeves at the same time to speed up production, this would allow the last layer to cool off before the next is extruded minimizing the bonding between layers.  And we want these to be strong. 

 

I think the sleeves have been tested in enough Reisings to call it a success.  Therefore, I am now offering the sleeves for sale for the cost of the filament plus postage.  A whole dollar each, plus $6 for postage should cover five or six sleeves.  Note that I will gratefully accept donations!  I’ll print them up as they are ordered so production will be a little slow.  Please keep in mind that you may have to adjust the feed lips on the magazine to fit your Reising.  Order the Promag .45 UZI 22 round magazines first (be careful there’s also a 10-round mag), then let me know how many sleeves you need.  Watch the price, many places have them for $30 each. For some reason a few vendors have gone “out of stock” recently.  I wonder why???  A special thanks to David for allowing me to offer these on his forum!


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#28 skoda

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 05:19 PM

Hi Doug,

 

Thanks a million for doing this. I'd like to get ten of them. How can we pay you?


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#29 nchunter182

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 07:12 PM

Excellent! I got my mags ordered and had to buy from two different places because of low stock. Ill be contacting you via PM to get payment/shipping information.
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#30 Burns556

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 08:55 AM

Very Cool Doug! Thanks!

 

I'd like 5 sleeves. Request your payment information.


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#31 gdk771

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Posted 19 September 2020 - 02:10 PM

I managed to find some of the ProMag 22rd Uzi mags here..
 
https://www.gunclips...i45acpgunm.html
 
They were initially out of stock but I put in my email to notify if back in stock and they emailed me today they were back in stock. They were $29.95 with free shipping (if you order over $50 I think) pretty easy to do with these mags ;)
 
Thanks Doug and the beta testers who helped to make long suffering Reising owners find affordable mags that can be modified for use in our SMG's !

Edited by gdk771, 19 September 2020 - 02:24 PM.

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#32 1gewehr

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 12:09 PM

Gunclips is out of stock.  I've ordered from CDNN at the same price.  But they are out of stock now too.

 

Now, if someone would only figure out a way to make them hold 30rds, that would be excellent!!!


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#33 Burns556

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 06:57 AM

I got mine from gunbroker item 879510565

 

Besides my purchase I'm not affiliated with them.


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#34 skoda

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Posted 03 October 2020 - 09:21 AM

I received mine yesterday. They are well made and were well packed. I only tried one pair and it looks like I might need to sand them a tiny amount but that's no problem.

 

Doug, you really did a great job and helped all of us Reising shooters with a significant problem. Thank you very much for doing this. And thanks to Garrett for coming up with the idea.


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#35 DougStump

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Posted 03 October 2020 - 11:08 AM

Y'all are very welcome!  I know 3D print gets a lot of bad press in firearm circles, but a project like this is where 3D printing shines, a small production run of low strength parts.

 

The cost to print each sleeve is $1.63 (I screwed up on the original estimate, the filament I'm using comes on smaller rolls).   The first prototype sleeve was in my hand a couple hours after I started designing it, I can make any needed design changes instantly, and they take about 1 1/2 hours to print each one.  While I can easily print several sleeves at the same time, this can allow the extruded plastic to cool and weaken the layers.  I want these as strong as I can make them so it's one at a time.  I bought the printer four years ago so the only up front cost was the rolls of filament.

 

Just for grins I got a quote for injection molding the sleeves, I hope you guys are sitting down!  First the mold would have to be multi-part thanks to the hole for the mag catch, single cavity, and made from aluminum (cheaper than steel but not as durable) and would cost $6,300.  Note that if there is a change in the design of the part this investment is lost.  A minimum run of 1,000 units using high impact plastic would cost $800.  Okay, 80 cents each is pretty good, but when we amortize in the cost of the mold it comes out $7.10 for each sleeve.  The total up front cost is $7,100 and a 6-9 month lead time plus shipping from China.  I have orders for about 80 sleeves (all but two orders have been shipped), what the heck would I do with the extra sleeves?

 

(I still can't believe I got it right on the first try!)


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#36 heavy artillery

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 12:42 PM

I'd like to procure 4 sleeves, please.  PM sent.


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#37 gdk771

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 01:35 AM

If anyone is still looking CDNN has the ProMag UZI mags.  43 mags in stock when I checked a few minutes ago.


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#38 huggytree

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Posted 27 October 2020 - 01:06 PM

 

here's a video of the issue im having with the mags. My factory 20 runs 100%. Ive got (4) Promags im testing bought from 2 different sources. All of the mags run 100% occasionally. The first 2 jam typically 1-2x a run.  The other (2) run much better and jam only occasionally. Ive opened the feed lips on all of them. Ive dry lubed and exercised the springs on all of them. The video shows the issue. The follower is leaving a gap below the first round the the bullets have to snap into the correct position. at 900 rpm they dont always snap up fast enough and i get a round stuck.

 

ive tested (4) types of ammo and some do run better than others, but i cant get these to run 100%.

 

did i open the feed lips up too much? 

Keystones dont run well in my gun either (not horrible, but about as good as these new pro mags) 

and once again the factory 20 rounder---perfect 100%


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#39 nchunter182

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Posted 28 October 2020 - 05:30 PM

Here's what I've found on mine. I have one 12 round original mag that runs perfectly. I measured the feed lips to compare with the 5 Promags that I bought. Original mag measured apx. .435" at rear and .450" at front. I checked the Promags and they all measured apx. .410" at rear and .460" at front. This makes the top round sit a more nose high than the original mag. I figured this may not be a bad thing as I've noticed that with the original mag the bullet nose hits the feed ramp pretty hard and I've found it can set the bullet back into the case. I'm loading my own so I've increased crimp to compensate. In my limited testing, I tried all 5 Promag's and they all feed almost perfectly. Only issue I saw was with a fully loaded 22 round mag, chambering the first round the bolt didn't want to fully strip the round and close the bolt. I had to help it forward a little to chamber. After that, no issues at all. I suspect that the Wolff spring kit I'm waiting for will resolve that.

It does look like the front of your feed lips are too wide and allowing the round to almost pop out of the mag. I'd try adjusting the feed lips on the Promags to match with your 20 round mag to get them to sit in the same place so the bolt can strip and feed just like the 20 round. 

 

FYI - I really like the adapters! The generous mag catch ramp on the front allows me to easily insert a mag. I have to hold back on the catch to insert my 12 round mag - it won't just slide in. Only thing I did to the adapters was add more taper to the top of the adapter with a belt sander. This made inserting a mag into the mag well easier as the top of the adapter would sometimes catch on the bottom of the mag well. Make reloads quick and easy!


Edited by nchunter182, 28 October 2020 - 05:31 PM.

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#40 huggytree

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Posted 05 November 2020 - 03:01 PM

I believe you are correct. I compared mags to my original. I opened up the front lips too much. And did not adjust the back of the lips at all. I closed up the front lips a bit and opened the back. Now the bullets dont pop up in 2 stages anymore. They snap right up. Gonna retest in a few weeks.

Ive left them aim a bit higher than my original 20 still. But not as much as the above pic.

Ty for the advice from everyone
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