75 replies to this topic

[kyle]

http://www.subguns.c...uery=retrieval#

[kyle]

Sorry... I guess it's a 1928 model, not 1928A1. But what's the deal with this gun? I thought all the NAC-XXX guns were Colt receivers. The ad says this is a Savage receiver. Any comments?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

The NAC "Numrich" suffix guns were Savage/AO parts guns. What Mr. Charron means by a "Tool Room Gun" is a head scratch. The reason why the frame doesn't have a serial number, never mind a matching one, is Ok by the seller since the "lower receiver and the upper receiver match 100% with the all original matte black WWII finish." But the good news is he takes credit cards.

[Sgt]

I thought NAC guns went through a complete makeover. Wouldn't they do a refinish too?

[kyle]

Arthur...

The thing I don't understand is that he indicates the serial number is NAC-XXX. This is apparently not a NAC-suffixed gun, but a NAC-prefix, like the Devine gun we discussed earlier. Isn't that a different situation?

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Kyler,
S-NAC3X marking indicates Savage marked their S without any following serial number leaving it to Numrich to add another number pulled from thin air. NAC-XX means Colt receiver with a Numrich serial number also. S-XXXXXXNAC would tend to indicate the serial number was stamped by Savage, and Numich assembled it. If there wasn't any number and the new number was added by Nurmich, then it would be a prefix. That sure seems to be the case with this gun.

Since this gun, going by the seller's S-NAC3X serial number, never had a Savage number to begin with, who is to say when it was finished and by whom?

What the hell is a "World War II lusse Barrel" anyway? Could that be a WWII "Issue" barrel? Does that mean the barrel is, or is not, marked with an "S"?

[TD.]

Kyle,
This appears to be one of the Thompsons assembled by Numrich Arms Corporation (NAC) from the parts they found when NAC purchased the Auto-Ordnance Division from Frederick Willis in the early 1950's. Auto-Ordnance Division at one time was the Auto-Ordnance Corporation, but when the corporation changed direction, Auto-Ordnance Corporation changed its name and relegated the Tommy Gun business to a Division within the new corporation.

The complete story of what guns and parts George Numrich found and exactly what he did with the guns and parts has never been fully told. Many (maybe all) of the prototypes went to West Point; the Blish pistol was sold to a private individual. This is where the story of the "NAC Thompsons" begins life. The real question is how many upper receivers/frames (and complete guns aside from the prototypes) were in those crates. I have heard the number 86 and the number 200. Either number is plausible. From these left over receivers, George Numrich built and sold these early NAC Thompsons. The original manufacturer of the receivers found by George Numrich was Colt and Savage. I assume some Auto-Ordnance receivers were in the mix but I have never seen an Auto-Ordnance NAC Thompson. The question that comes to mind is how many receivers were Colt, how many Savage, and how many Auto-Ordnance. I don't know...and I doubt anyone else knows the exact number. Since NAC was now manufacturing Thompsons, NAC applied the serial numbers to the Thompsons they manufactured. This was done with the NAC prefix followed by a number. From what I can tell, the Colt receivers started the NAC production with NAC 1, NAC 3, NAC 5 but soon totally unmarked receivers come into the picture: NAC 15 is a prime example. Savage receivers were also in the mix at a very early number i.e., NO S - NAC 17. When I say manufacturing, I really mean assembling and fitting parts. However, I would assume Numrich Arms Corporation is listed on the BATF forms as manufacturer. I don't believe NAC actually did any real manufacturing until it began selling the Thompsons we refer to as "West Hurleys."

Thompsons with a complete Savage or Auto-Ordnance serial number and stamped NAC after the serial number were most likely complete Thompsons NAC imported into the USA and sold. Each gun would have to be judged on its own merits but it has been reported many times over the years NAC imported and sold complete Thompsons in the USA. Given the number of NAC suffixed Thompsons in circulation that appear to be original except for the NAC suffix, it is a safe bet we owe George Numrich a debt of gratitude for importing all that he did. I don't know why he stamped NAC as a suffix after the serial numbers. Perhaps it was some type of import requirement. I don't think the "NAC" suffix after the serial number became part of the BATF registered serial number when these Thompsons were sold and transferred from NAC to the new owners.

I believe the NAC Thompsons with the NAC prefix were from unserial numbered receivers or receivers that have had the manufacturers serial numbers removed (by NAC). As these guns were manufactured/assembled by NAC, the serial number with the NAC prefix was applied. I believe this "NAC" prefix is part of the BATF registered serial number.

S - NAC 33 is probably just another NAC Thompson, perhaps the 33rd made and registered for sale by NAC. I doubt it is a Bridgeport "Tool Room Gun." I would guess all Bridgeport "Tool Room Guns, " prototypes, experimental production guns, etc. would have a New York address. Please note S - NAC 33 has a Bridgeport address. When the New York to Bridgeport address change took place, "Tool Room Guns, " prototypes, experimental production guns, etc. were no longer needed. I have examined S - NAC 17; S - NAC 33 looks just like it. One difference is S- NAC 17 is marked "US Model of 1928A1" and S- NAC 33 appears to be marked "Model of 1928." I would guess there are other minor differences. A picture of S - NAC 17 is on Page 9 of the Thompson Booklet, "On the Side of Law & Order." NAC Thompson S - NAC 17 is currently on display with all the other Thompson models at National Firearms Museum (who said NAC Thomspons were not legitimate Thompsons).

This post is long enough so I will stop. I do welcome all responses. There is a lot of information still to be uncovered. I would like to track down all the "NAC" prefix Thompsons. If you have one, or know of one, how about dropping me a line.
Thanks,
Tom

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

TD,
Thanks for the additional explanation. This has been posted on the board before, but I didn't have the energy to go into detail again. As far as who said NAC guns are not TSMG's, it is the cosidered opinion of GH, Cox, and Richardson who refer to the Colt NAC guns as not being Colt production guns. I don't think anyone said they weren't Thompson's. But the way that Mr. Charron advertises his gun is certainly misleading, if not fraudulent. We can thank Numrich for importing Thompson's, but there isn't much to be grateful for concerning his peculiar method of marking these guns, and how he left it to subsequent owners of these guns to manufacture apocryphal stories to accompany their sales ad copy.

[kyle]

Thanks TD, Arthur for going through this again.

[leid]

Hi guys,
This gun was initially offered to several people for $14,200 before being listed. No takers at that price, so the price was raised.
THANKS
Carey

[TD.]

That is interesting. Thompson Serial number NAC 5, with a Colt receiver and Colt butt stock, only sold for 10K at a JC Devine auction earlier this year. I would guess a NAC Thompson with Savage or Auto-Ordnance receiver would bring less, but who knows in this market.

Question: Would a NAC Thompson really be a C&R? I would think the manufacturer would be Numrich Arms Corporation, the company that assembled and more importantly, papered the gun with BATF - not the original manufacturer of the receiver.

[giantpanda4]

You know, whatever this is - nowadays $14k is not unreasonable for a shooter.

Buy it, and shoot away! The "history" of it will always be there. Research it later.

[TD.]

Phil,
I agree a Thompson with a complete Savage or Auto-Ordnance serial number with NAC suffix would be C&R today because all George Numrich did was import and sell these Thompsons. The manufacturer would be Savage or Auto-Ordnance, thus making it a C&R.

Even though I did not make myself clear (sorry), what I was referring to in my C&R question was the Thompsons with the NAC prefix as part of the serial number. If NAC was the manufacturer of these Thompsons (for BATF purposes) then I don't think these Thompsons would be C&R - irrespective of who actually manufactured the receiver. However, I don't know if there is a definitive answer on this C&R question. It may be different for different guns. It may all depend on who is listed on the Form 3 or Form 4 as manufacturer.

Does anyone on the board own a NAC prefix Thompson that would share who is listed on the Form 4 as the manufacturer?

[kyle]

Ad updated to "Sale Pending".

[Greg]

My AO1928A1 has the NAC suffex. Both upper and lower match. It was a PD gun. During my search though,I could find no proof and/or arsenal markings.

[21 smoker]

My Savage 28 is also marked with a NAC suffix and it is my understanding that it went overseas in 1940,was proofed at the House of Enfield and returned to the U.S. late 40s-early 50s and registered during the amnesty and dewatted at the same time...doh!...and now is awaiting the magic of P.K...range report to follow.

[TSMGguy]

TD,

My M1928A1, S-332xxxNAC, has Savage Arms and the Bridgeport address on the form 4. Numrich is never mentioned. The serial with the NAC suffix is the form 4 serial of the gun.

[TD.]

Sale Pending - I hope the buyer knows something I don't (which is very possible - I didn't write the book on NAC Thompsons). I think Arthur summed it up best, "...but there isn't much to be grateful for concerning his peculiar method of marking these guns, and how he left it to subsequent owners of these guns to manufacture apocryphal stories to accompany their sales ad copy. " Well said, Arthur.

Greg and 21 Smoker - Thank-you for your replies. Two quick questions:

1. On your Form 4 (or 3), is Auto-Ordnance or Savage listed as the manufacturer? My guess is yes.
2. On your Form 4 (or 3), is the letters "NAC" part of the registered BATF serial number? My guess is no.

Anyone else with NAC suffix guns feel free to join in. We can make this a learning experience for everyone.

How about any members with NAC prefix (serial number) guns?

[leid]

Hi guys,
I hope some one here got it for a reasonable price. Like giantpanda4 said earlier, you could have a lot of fun with that gun.
Carey

[TD.]

TSMG Guy,
So the NAC suffix is part of your BATF registered serial number on your Form 4. Interesting. Do you know the past history of your 1928A1, i.e., Police Department Gun, Amnesty Gun, etc? The Savage serial number appears to be in the proper serial number range. Do you have any reason to suspect your Thompson is not an ex-military Thompson?
Thanks for your reply. It will be interesting to see what others have to say about their NAC suffix Thompsons.