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Nac '28a1 For Sale


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#21 kyle

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 10:23 PM

My '28A1 has NAC lightly stamped just after the full Savage serial number. It "appears" that NAC is also stamped on a second line right below the main Savage serial number. I say "appears", because the first letter looks a little like a "N", the second letter definitely looks like an "A", but the 3rd looks NOTHING like a "C". I really don't know what it is or why it would have been stamped twice. My Form 4 only list the Savage serial number. No mention of the NAC suffix.

There is an ordnance bomb clearly visible on the left front of the receiver just ahead of a faint but definite GEG stamp.

There is something that also looks like a "B" but I really can't say that I can find the "R" and "L" to complete the "RLB" inspector mark that should be there. I'm looking forward to looking at the gun more closely when the Feds okay the transfer. I originally thought it was "RLB", then I thought it looked like a British crown, like that shown on page 54 of Frank's book. But now, I think it's got to be RLB given the presence of the ordnance.

I love learning the history of these gun and wish I knew more of my gun's lineage.

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#22 AZDoug

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 01:11 AM

NAC-15 has Colt listed as manufacturer on the original filing paperwork from 1951, and all subseguent transfers, as the manufacturer of the gun.

NAC-16 and up I don't know about.

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#23 TD.

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 06:30 AM

TSMGguy' s 1928A1 has the "NAC" suffix has part of the BATF registered serial number with SAVAGE as the Manufacturer.
Kyle's 1928A1 does not have the "NAC" suffix as part of the BATF registered serial number. No word on whether SAVAGE is listed as the manufacturer on the BATF forms.

It will be interesting to see what others report.

AZDoug's 1928 NAC prefix Thompson, NAC 15, lists Colt as the manufacturer on the BATF paperwork. This is a very interesting Thompson in that it has no markings on the receiver other than the serial number (please correct me if I am wrong about this). Doug has no doubt the receiver of NAC 15 was manufactured by Colt. Doug, is this Thompson considered a Curio and Relic by BATF?

Thanks to all that have contributed information.


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#24 SecondAmend

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 06:32 AM

TD,

The so-called auction held by J.C. Devine that included NAC-5 was, as discussed on at least one prior thread, an abberation. There were, by all accounts, some people who were ready and willing to pay far more than what was paid for several of the Thompsons when, for no clearly stated reason(s), the bidding was stopped.

I would personally classify prices from that event as unreliable at best.

MHO

Tom S.
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#25 AZDoug

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 11:16 AM

NAC-15 has hand stamped with the SN, M. 1928. It also has Auto Ordnance Corporation roll stamped on the TOP of the receiver near the rear sight. The SN and 1928 show signs of buffing marks prior to (re)bluing. The roll stamp on top shows none of this wear from buffing. The lower receiver also is unmarked, no safe/fire, or Semi/FA stuff.

My personal opinion is the receiver was rejected for compeltion/sale for QC reasons due to an oversize pilot hole and was used internally for some reason or another. Or maybe the pilot hole is oversized from use, and it was just an extra receiver that exceeded the contract delivery amount., as all production runs produce a few extra to allow for defects, scrapage, etc.

Doug
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#26 kyle

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE (TD. @ Jun 22 2004, 06:30 AM)

Kyle's 1928A1 does not have the "NAC" suffix as part of the BATF registered serial number. No word on whether SAVAGE is listed as the manufacturer on the BATF forms.

On my Form 4, the manufacturer is Auto Ordnance Corp . I don't think Savage would ever be listed as the manufacturer as they were merely a subcontractor to AOC.

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#27 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 01:13 PM

Kyle,
That would be a strange change of events since Auto-Ord-Co was never the manufacturer of the original guns (other than the 40 prototypes) and these TSMG's have Colt listed as manufacturer on the BATF forms. These BATF forms are filled out by the transferor. Perhaps on your form the tranferor decided to fill in Auto-Ord, but other transferor's might type in Savage.

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#28 kyle

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 02:35 PM

Arthur, I honestly don't understand what you're trying to tell me. Let's assume I have the following Thompson in front of me.

The right side of the upper receiver is stamped...

AUTO-ORDNANCE CORPORATION
BRIDGEPORT,CONNECTICUT,U.S.A.


The left side is marked...

U.S. MODEL OF 1928A1
NO.S- 334XXX


Are you telling me that Savage should be listed as the manufacturer and not Auto-Ordnance on the Form 4?


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#29 hawksnest

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 03:15 PM

My Savage 1928A1 is S/N 165xxxNAC. The manufacturer is listed as Auto Ordnance Corp. USA. The NAC suffix is included with the serial number on the form 4. The frame and trigger housing match (both have NAC following the serial). The gun has brithish proofs on the right side of the receiver in front of the mag well. The gun is marked "Tommy Gun" on top of the receiver to the right of the lyman sight. I love it
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#30 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 03:21 PM

Kyle,
Let me clarify. The Savage Arms Corporation made TSMG, with the left side of the receiver stamped either, "Auto-Ordnance Corporation New York, N.Y.N.Y. U.S.A." or "Auto-Ordnance Corporation Bridgeport, Connecticut, U.S.A." had their factory in Utica, New York. So in reality it was not Auto-Ord that made these guns regardless of the markings. The AOC marked guns of WWII would have been manufactured by an actual Auto-Ordnance controlled factory in Bridgeport, CT. So, "should" Savage be inserted into the manufacturer's box on a BATF form? It could and it would be quit correct. But whether it says Auto-Ord, or Savage, BATF could care less.

To further illustrate this conundrum with receiver markings, the Colt TSMG has the Colt name and Hartford, CT address along with the Auto-Ord New York Address. Yet, I have seen forms with Colt used as the manufacturer for BATF forms. Could a transferor also put Auto-Ord-Co in that box? I'm sure they could. I guess it comes down to what the transferor sees in front of them on the receiver when they fill in the box

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#31 21 smoker

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 05:20 PM

Well, had to wait to get home to check form 4 and NAC is definitely in the serial no. on the form as well as Savage as the manufactorer....interesting note,I started to check other NFA paperwork and on my Schnellfeuer paperwork the manufactorer is listed `WWII GERMANY`...kinda cool in a way and the NESA BAR is listed as `Browning Arms ` as the manufactorer...doesn`t seem correct to me...should be ....`New England Small Arms`...but that`s the government for ya,my .02. wink.gif



P.S....Phil,.. we micro-examine these records because 1) it is very interesting and 2) there is $$$$$$$$$$$$$ involved like never before...IMO, wink.gif
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#32 DEC46

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 09:56 PM

I have a NAC suffix Auto Ordnance 1928A1 Thompson that shows Numerich Arms as importer on my form3 and the NAC suffix at the end of serial number also on the form. It is completely Auto-Ordnance all the way. It has the ordnance bomb and auto-Ordnance inspectors initials stamped on the receiver but no British markings like most that I have seen. It came out of a police department about thirteen years ago. It came out with two other NAC Thompsons. One was exactly like mine and the other one was British marked and with Tommygun on top of the receiver.
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#33 kyle

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:29 PM

Wow! I was never aware of the diversity in the NAC universe. This could a whole chapter in Frank's next book. Thanks for all the great input guys.

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#34 TD.

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:46 PM

SecondAmend - Good point about the JC Devine Auction. I know all too well what you are referring too. If you include the 15% buyers premium for NAC 5 it sold for $11,500.

AZDoug - Thanks for the update on NAC 15. This is one interesting Thompson.

Kyle - I would have thought Savage would have been listed as the manufacturer of your Savage 1928A1 on the Form 4. It appears Arthur and Phil are right in that it doesn't really make any difference who or what is listed in the manufacturer box on the Form 4. In this small sampling, we are all over the place!

Hawksnest - You have a Savage 1928A1 like Kyle's that has Auto-Ordnance listed as the manufacturer. However, Hawksnest's Thompson has the NAC suffix listed as part of the serial number on the Form 4 and Kyle's NAC suffix marked Thompson serial number does not have the NAC suffix as part of the serial number on the Form 4. (I would love to own either one)

Colt21a - Here is a Savage 1928A1 with International Armament Corp as the manufacturer. I am beginning to see a pattern here huh.gif

21Smoker - Thanks for the update. A Savage 1928A1 with Savage as the Manufacturer and the NAC suffix listed as part of the serial number on the Form 4.

Dec46 - An Auto-Ordnance 1928A1 that shows Numrich Arms as the importer and the NAC suffix listed as part of the serial number on the Form 3.

Based on this small sampling it appears you could put "BRAND XXX" as the manufacturer on the Form 4 and no one would bat an eye. Interesting. Except for Kyle's 1928A1 Savage, it appears the NAC suffix is listed as part of the serial number on the Form 3 or Form 4. It would be interesting if Kyle could locate some of the past Forms 3 and/or 4 for his Thompson to see if his Thompson at one time had the NAC suffix listed as part of the serial number on the BATF forms.

Any others want to share some information? It would be great to get a few more NAC suffix and prefix guns in this informal survey.
Thanks,


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#35 Emmagee

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 01:05 AM

With the exception of Colt Thompsons, and without digging through all the paperwork, I can safely say that 95% of the WWII Thompsons I have had, both M1/M1A1 and '28's have listed Auto Ordnance as the manufacturer. It has been my eeperience that most guns registered prior to 1968 have manufacturers and model names/numbers listed that are not as "accurate" as we know they could be. As others have pointed out simply naming the country of origin is often listed on foreign guns and listing 1919's, BAR's, etc. as Browning manufacture.

Doesn't make it wrong, just they way it was done "back in the day."
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#36 SecondAmend

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 06:45 AM

Emmagee, et al.,

To add to the Brand X Theory, I have seen a West Hurley 28 Korean War Commemorative where the manufacturer on the Form 4 is listed as American Historical Foundation, Richmond, VA. The receiver has the (gold filled) an Auto Ordnance, West Hurley, New York stamping on the rear, left receiver and American Historical Foundation, Richmond, VA on the left, front of the receiver.

I've also seen the Form 4 for a 21/28 Navy where Auto Ordnance, Nashua (sp?), New York, not Colt, Hartford, CT was listed as the manufacturer, and my Savage 28 has Auto Ordnance, Bridgeport, CT as the manufacturer.

Whatever.
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#37 Greg

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 12:24 PM

TD
Checked my gun and paperwork and here's what I found. On the paperwork, the manufacturer is listed as "Auto Ordinance", the serial number listed does not include the letters "NAC".

About the gun: Its a Auto Ord 1928A1. The "US" has been ground off and the letter "C" is stamped over the numeral "1". The serial number is in the 1510--X range. I can find no government inspector or acceptance stamps. It has a finned barrel, lyman adjustable sight, and the late period cutts comp with no markings. It came with a M1917 Kerr sling and both vertical and horizontal forarms/grips. Slig swivels are milled steel. Actuator knob is smooth. Paddle safety and rocker levers are milled with no checkering. This is a Ex-PD gun from my old Department. It was reported that they had several prior to my employment. Since then, they were traded for newer weapons. (Mini 14's, M16's) Hope this helped. I too would like to see more info on these guns.
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#38 Tex

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 12:27 PM

Slightly off of the NAC subject but, the form 4 on my pending Savage M1 is marked "Thompson Auto Ordnance" in the manufacturers space.
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#39 TD.

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 09:13 PM

Emmagee - It appears you are right based on what we are seeing on this post. Hopefully, we will get a few more responses.

SecondAmend - A West Hurley with incorrect information. I guess the problem is not just with the older guns.

Colt21a - I wonder if Gordon has the information on the Marine Corps Colt guns. If you have any of the serial numbers, I will be glad to look up the numbers for you (and the rest of the board). Ron, did you ever acquire (and sell) any NAC prefix Thompsons? We only have one response with this type of NAC.

Greg - Thanks for the update. "Auto-Ordinance" - looks like spelling is not all that important on the Form 4's biggrin.gif Your Thompson is like Kyle’s in that the NAC suffix is not listed as part of the serial number on the Form 4. Your Thompson is definitely a PD gun with the altered US 1928 A1 to 1928AC markings. PhilOhio has one just like it with the altered model markings and no government inspector markings or acceptance stamps. If I remember correctly, Phil believes his Thompson was sold directly to the PD by Auto-Ordnance because of the lack of government markings. Your Thompson also has no government markings but appears to be definitely imported from outside the US by NAC because of the NAC suffix. Interesting.

Tex - Thanks for the post. It appears this problem with manufacturers in not just with the 1928's.

I will keep the tally if we can get more information posted. It appears there is a lot to learn about the NAC Thompsons.
Thanks,




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#40 blishblock

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 11:57 PM

Well guys, sorry to be late on the thread ; however I just picked it up. NAC17is on a form 3. Maker "Auto Ordnance Corp"; Registered serial is NAC17. Number was orignally an S prefix that was ground off. S still there but not part of the serial no. lower matches NAC17 and was not ground. Clearly ww2 manuf. Bought it from Roger Cox in 1979---came from a PD. On replacing the bbl I found 2 serial nos under the grip mount inlet--one was partially obliterated. other in 500xxx range. Gun is a 21A configuration. Shoots 10" high at 50 yds. Something wasn't right at the factory. Otherwise it shoots flawlessly. Put 10,000 rds throughit easily since 1979---my shoooter. Now sitting in NRA museum
Have a number of other NAC suffix guns--all came from Del State Police in 1981. All are AO prefix; on form 3's ; Regist. maker on all is" McGuire Industries." US ground off; 1 on A1 is ground and restamped with a C. No military proofs.
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