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#1 Doug Richardson

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 02:38 PM


I have, as many of you older timers on the board are aware, crusaded against fraud and deception in the Thompson field. My back is full of the proverbial arrows shot at me for my negative stand on the Numrich/Kahr guns being passed off by the respective companies who implied, if not actually claimed, to be successors in interest to the Auto-Ordnance Corporation founded by Col. Thompson, et al. A lot of people were deceived into believing they were buying genuine Thompson guns and drum magazines and those people paid the price. Others wanted to be deceived and were angry at me for making them admit to themselves that their Numrich/Kahr 27A1 was not a genuine Thompson 1928 or anything else genuine Thompson.

I did have a hand in the spare parts boxes as well as the “FBI” cleaning rods being offered by Gordon Herigstad. I provided drawings and manufacturing consultation. I was not a partner in the products. Gordon did as good a job getting those products made like the originals as was reasonably possible. I suggested to him that they be marked with an “H” (for Herigstad) to avoid any possible resale of the items as originals. Gordon felt that a real Thompson expert would be able to distinguish them from the originals. I agreed that might be true but I was not concerned as much about that person as I was for the majority of Thompson enthusiasts who would not be able to distinguish them from originals simply because they do not have the originals as a reference. Gordon accepted my argument and finally relented somewhat on the parts boxes by marking them, but in a very inconspicuous manner. He wanted to make the box as close to the original as possible and felt that adding an obvious mark would detract from that goal. I had to agree with that. In any case, it is not Gordon who attempted to deceive anyone. But, can everyone who transfers the item to the next guy be relied upon to be honest? I think not and past experience indicates that will not be the case. That is the dilemma.

And just who are those Thompson “experts” who are going to keep separating the fakes from the authentics? (I define “fake” as any Thompson item not made under contract with the real Auto-Ordnance Corporation but claimed to have been.) How many Thompson “experts” believe the WW2 guns were originally Parkerized? They were not. The legendary Curtis Earl was probably a man one would consider to be a Thompson “expert”. He bet me his entire Thompson gun collection that I was wrong when I told him that one of his Colt Navy guns had a Savage actuator in it. I could see that from 6 feet away. He tore the gun apart and found the Savage marked actuator in disbelief that he had been fooled. Tracie Hill has had first hand experience in being deceived by fakes with the likes of the “M1A2” and “1940” model guns he featured in his book. Both are fakes. So he is probably especially sensitive to this issue. I have seen a few fake items that would fool most any of the ”experts”. There was a cut up Colt 1927 receiver for sale at a recent gun show. Everyone was in tears that a mint, rare Colt had been destroyed. But before one of the “experts” paid the high asking price, I told him the receiver was a fake. It was so well done, I wish I had made it. Does that make me an “expert”? I manufacture receivers so I ought to be an expert, at least on receivers. But there have been a few items I have examined that are a very close call regarding their authenticity. There were probably other fakes that I did not spot, so that disqualifies me. The other side of the coin is that after a while, the fakes seem to become the norm as the originals become more rare. Before long, the originals may be identified as the fakes by the “experts” who had never seen an original. Like the Hollywood guy who asked the country girl, after fondling her breasts: “What is wrong with your breasts?” “They are real.” She replied.

So what to do? My personal position is that any item that would command a substantially greater price if it were original, should be clearly marked. For example, I mark all my reproduction vertical foregrips with “R” for Richardson. I mark all my receivers similairly. I have decided to go back to my original placement of the “R” under the gripmount to eliminate the loss of the mark in the event the receiver is (LEGALLY) completed. The barrels I make pose another problem. I do not mark them because I do not know where I would do it since the barrels never end up in the same position on every gun. Therefore, I cannot mark them on the “bottom”. I have had a number of requests not to mark my receivers and foregrips. I am sure the requests were simply honest efforts by the gun owners to keep their guns as authentic looking as possible but what if honesty was not their intention? Anyway, I always mark them. It becomes less clear when the part is something like a spring (how does one mark that?), pin, screw etc. But does anyone really care about items like those? Probably not. But, the big items should be marked

At least we are being condemned for making things too good. Probably no one ever made that complaint about Numrich/Kahr.

P.S. My schedule has changed. I will be at my base in California during July. Hopefully, getting more caught up.



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#2 Norm

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 02:56 PM

QUOTE
Gordon accepted my argument and finally relented somewhat on the parts boxes by marking them, but in a very inconspicuous manner.


What is the identifying mark?

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#3 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 03:06 PM

QUOTE
My back is full of the proverbial arrows shot at me for my negative stand on the Numrich/Kahr guns being passed off by the respective companies who implied, if not actually claimed, to be successors in interest to the Auto-Ordnance Corporation founded by Col. Thompson, et al. A lot of people were deceived into believing they were buying genuine Thompson guns and drum magazines and those people paid the price. Others wanted to be deceived and were angry at me for making them admit to themselves that their Numrich/Kahr 27A1 was not a genuine Thompson 1928 or anything else genuine Thompson. D. Richardosn


Doug,
Music to my ears! Check out the NAC thread.

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#4 Sig

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Doug Richardson @ Jun 27 2004, 04:38 PM)
Gordon accepted my argument and finally relented somewhat on the parts boxes by marking them, but in a very inconspicuous manner.

Would love to know how/where said mark is.
michael
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#5 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 03:16 PM

So current owners of the GH box are clueless to the whereabouts and image of this mark, or they believe like "The Moor," it should be kept a secret only to be revealed by GH himself?
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#6 SecondAmend

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 03:18 PM

Doug,

Welcome back and thank you for the note of explanation. While I do not now, nor probably will I ever enter the esoteric world of high grade Thompson collection (mine is a WWII vintage Savage made gun), I appreciate your time and consideration.

Re: all WWII Thompsons being Parkarized from the factory, you can thank, for one, Roger Cox for that bit of mis-information. While I admire Roger for his efforts at producing the book on Thompsons, I was a bit dismayed when I read his statement. For one who was to have personally handled approximately 3,000 Thompsons, one would think that the difference between Du-Lite and Parkerizing would be noticable. I suppose his concentration was on the blued Colt made Thompsons.
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#7 Sig

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 05:46 PM

Doug
If you want to mark your barrels inconspicuously how about in the same place/manner the 1st 1,000 TSMG's were marked at the breech end?
Just a thought.
We love your stuff and I especially love my display gun you put together
michael
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#8 Sig

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 05:51 PM

Ron
Go to my website link below my Sig!
It is the only shot I have of it.
It is in the gun section.
I am an expat at the moment so that is all I can do for pics for a while.
michael
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#9 Sig

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 06:26 PM

Interesting
Has anyone else had an issue going to my website?
Ron I realized I have more shots on my computer, I will email them to you.
If anyone else is interested in photos of the Richardson display gun email me.
michael
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#10 Zamm

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 06:33 PM

Mike,
Clicked on the link and got a display X
Z
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#11 Sig

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 06:48 PM

OK This is starting to tick me off!
I put a bunch of work on that site and it works fine for me.

If the links below don't work I have no idea what to do at the moment.

Two ways to link.

Colt Tommygunner - Cyber Museum

http://colttommygunn...2004/index.html
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#12 The1930sRust

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 07:33 PM

Doug, are you playing a trick on me? Or is this post self-propagating? Every time I see a duplicate, and delete it or merge it, it comes back! THE POST THAT WOULDN'T STOP! Arrgggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............!
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#13 full auto 45

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 07:43 PM

Works good for me. Zamm's photo's on the other thing don't work though.
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#14 Doug Richardson

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 08:49 PM

Yes, the post has propagated itself due to Belize Internet system. This should be the last post. Do not know how to take the topic off other than this.
Doug

Edited by Doug Richardson, 27 June 2004 - 09:01 PM.

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#15 The1930sRust

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 09:07 PM

Ah, that explains it. I, of course, was being facetious. Yours is not the only post that has double, even tripled up. I'll take care of it.

And now back on topic.............
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#16 Doug Richardson

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 02:42 PM

As far as more details regarding ordering the spare parts boxes or how they are marked or any other information about them, inquiries should be directed to Gordon Herigstad @ GordonColt@aol.com.
They are his product. I wish someone would teach him how to use this board. He can't seem to figure it out.
But I should not comment on that because I can't use a computer if Madalon (M.K.Witter) doesn't help me.
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