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The "advanced" Thompson Collector


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#1 John Jr

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 11:14 PM

I love when the term "advanced Thompson collector" is thrown around. What defines this in your mind??

I say Roger Cox was the ultimate "Advanced Thompson Collector." Hill has to come in here somewhere...

Dealers? Nick Tillota is certainly up there...

I guess I define an advanced collector as one who has activly spent YEARS obtaining a collection of all sorts of Thompsons and accessories...and knows all the ins and outs and fakes from the reals... You know.........


wink.gif


What is an advanced collector to you???
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#2 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 11:34 PM

Cox was the man! He tracked them down and then sold them, and not at absurd prices. Ron Kovar is also that type of “advanced” collector. Tillota, although a dealer, with 30+ examples still in a vault, seems to be a hoarder like Earl. I can’t fathom why people permanently take the few transferable remaining guns and salt them away. A collector might have eight or ten TSMG’s of the various types and that would be more than a fair representation of what the TSMG is all about.

Check out this extreme collector’s collection that was secreted away from prying eyes for 50 years. Talk about an eccentric!


http://bimmer.roadfl.../5220427-1.html
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#3 colt21a

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 12:22 AM

a advanced collector is also somebody who only trades to upgrade ,and never ever sell's.....no matter what the price he is offered.now thats advanced.........

also one who is well versed in all that out there.not just one type of firearm...............

its best to know a little about alot ,then alot about so little..........
i hope some here will be able to enjoy it as much as i did!!
and for as long,then maybe some day thirty years in the future some youngblood will come along and call you a has-been!!

and you can respond with a smile and a wink!!

for really you are already one step ahead of the pack......i did it my way.

ron
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#4 Walter63a

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 12:38 AM

Arthur, surely Col. Berman's collecting habits are not unusual for a person of substance in a very prosperous nation. laugh.gif There have been individuals and families who have been hoarders in America, since before The United States existed as a nation. I think back to the old Brahmin families of Boston and the Knickerbockers of N.Y., N.Y. and the Hudson Valley of upstate New York. Some will call such individuals and families sick, or merely eccentric. Others find them mildly interesting. Some (of these hoarders) recognizing their own ultimate mortality, make arrangements to entomb their soon to be former possessions in museums, where they can be enjoyed slightly by future generations. Others make provisions in their wills to have them entombed with their corpses, or ashes. Still others leave them to family members (who may sell them immediately, keep them for their natural lifespan, and /or sell them at some point, out of economic hardship, or their descendants may, later). The main point is we are all very temporary caretakers, of these objects of our creation! blink.gif We can enjoy them for our extremely fleeting lives, and that is it. ohmy.gif At best, people like Col. Berman will be a mere footnote in history, if that (because of his museum philanthropy). And that is okay, because I don't know, nor care , whether I will have one (a footnote, that is).
John, to answer your original question, I think that an advanced Thompson collector is someone who has spent some serious time acquiring a fairly broad and deep knowledge of all things Thompson (found in books by people like Roger Cox, Tracie Hill, Frank Iannamico, etc. and in other knowledgable collectors found on boards like this one) and has bought/ owned at least one TSMG (any variant). That is why I am not an advanced collector, yet (mine is only a semi-auto). Full-auto is verboten in New Yorkislavia.:-( cool.gif Best Regards, Walter
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#5 Grey Crow

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:32 AM

Walter,

Just because you are prohibited from owning a FA, doesn't mean that you cannot become, or are not an advanced collector.

Certainly you can obtain the wisdom surrounding the older originals, and because you can only have semis due to logistics, you would be more of a specialist. One can collect parts, memorabilia, and also build a collection of semis.
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#6 Sig

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:56 AM

Walter I agree with Grey Crow on this. Just because you are not able to acquire a full auto has NO bearing on being advanced.
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#7 full auto 45

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 06:33 AM

You can own oodles of guns of all types and makes in the Thompson field. I would say a advanced collector would be someone like a Tracie Hill. Tracie not only has several of the "prototype" guns but he has alot of the personal items of John Thompson and John Blish and Theodore Eickhoff. And when I say the personal items I mean personal, he has the bed that John Thompson died on! He has several letters by Thompson and Blish and Eickhoff. Some were given to him some were bought at auctions. When you have 4 out of 5 of the only known 1919's to exsist in public hands, that would be "advanced". "WE" are just collectors with an expensive habit.
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#8 21 smoker

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 08:32 AM

Certainly all the above qualify,..so I`ll add my .02... Bill Douglas at the NASLEM Museum...that is where Tracie found alot of the prototypes...and the number 1 srounger Herb Woodend...he qualifies on sheer volume...even though technically he didn`t own the collection in the Pattern Room,he was responsible for amassing the worlds greatist collection IMO, wink.gif
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#9 Z3BigDaddy

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 11:00 AM

Wow #122 very insightful, and thought provoking post. I usually don't read your postings as they are usually a bit long for my AADD. But this one was succinct, to the point, and well written. I agree with most of your points if not all....
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#10 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 12:04 PM

Phil,
I’m not sure that one could become expert on any weapon, or any subject (insert your hobby here) and not have physically handled numerous examples in person. Whether that means owning or examining someone else’s, it is impossible to rely on books and photos since there are so many mistakes and misidentifications in these periodicals. There are just too many nuances that can only be appreciated with hands on experience.

Mike,
The fact that Hill owns J. T’s death bed does not make him an advanced collector, but surely a macabre one. I lived 13 miles from Thompson’s New Canaan, Ct home where he lived during the 1920’s and where his wife died. Now I lived in the vicinity during the 60’s/70’s, but if I had ripped off the current owner's house number back then, I guess I would be on my way to being an advanced collector. Since Tracy didn’t start collecting TSMG paraphernalia until 1987, I wondered where he would have managed to acquire these 1919 prototypes so late in the TSMG collecting game. Well, 21 Smoker answers that question; Hill got them from Bill Douglas at the NASLEM Museum.

Ron,
A true collector is one that never sells, but only trades up. But the difference between a collector, who appreciates the various model types, and the hoarder, is that the hoarder has several examples of the SAME model. The problem with one collector having all of one prototype is that they may someday realize that one existing example of a prototype is way more valuable than four existing prototypes.

Walter,
The fact that hoarders are de rigueur in a capitalistic society is not contested. But the secretive method by which Col. Berman's acquired his collection may be more revealing of his character than any artifact found in his basement.

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#11 John Jr

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 12:19 PM

QUOTE
or any subject (insert your hobby here) and not have physically handled numerous examples in person.


Does this make me an expert on women??

laugh.gif
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#12 Walter63a

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:46 PM

Grey Crow, Sig, and PhilOhio, thanks for reassuring me that I am in the process of becoming an "advanced Thompson collector." smile.gif I think that is a very valuable insight Phil! No person, in whatever field of knowledge or arena of endeavor, can sit back on his/ her laurels and expect to remain at the top, or near the top. The journey is often more enjoyable and profitable than the destination, as I'm sure people like the "Respected Ron" will confirm. blink.gif tongue.gif cool.gif Best Regards to all, Walter
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#13 JimFromFL

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 07:17 PM

What about a "Thompson Collector"???

If you only own one, can you be considered a Collector?
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#14 TD.

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 07:51 PM

I think there have been some very good points made in this thread. I don’t think any of us fully understand or appreciate the power of the Internet in our chosen interest. It is my opinion that someone who owns a number of Thompsons will indeed have a great deal of knowledge on the subject. However, mere ownership alone will not put one at the top of the knowledge base. J. Curtis Earl owned many Thompsons, but I have never heard him mentioned as an expert in the way I hear the names Helmer, Hill, Herigstad, and now Iannamico. Even Roger Cox, someone who also owned many Thompsons, is thought of differently than Earl. With that said, I must add that I don’t think all the book knowledge in the world will teach you how to spot a re-blue or re-barreled Thompson – or give you that bad feeling that something is not right with this Thompson but I just can’t put my finger on it…yet. However, the knowledge that comes from research in areas like manufacturing, markings, changes in markings, serial numbers and original purchasers cannot be learned just from mere ownership. I think the combination of the well read and continual Thompson researcher coupled with the ability to own or at least view and handle the Thompson on a regular basis would make someone a true expert in this field. And if you think about it, that last sentence pretty much sums up Hill, Herigstad, and Iannamico. One more thing - I believe all of these authors would agree that there is much more to learn on the Thompson Submachine Gun.
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#15 colt21a

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (JimFromFL @ Jul 20 2004, 07:17 PM)
What about a "Thompson Collector"???

If you only own one, can you be considered a Collector?

if you only have one ,and also a few things to go with it,not just the bare bones gun,and more then one mag or a drum.........you are on the way for sure..........


its a fun trip guy's..when back in chicago.i liked nothing better in the fall,a little cloudy grey cool day..to crack open roger's book.........relax.look at all the serial number's......and sniff some canvass.go over to the cabinet.take out a 21a,oil it down.......and relax.........it's those little things that make a collector.. wink! take care,ron
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#16 Sig

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 08:28 PM

JimFromFl Ron is oh so correct, just hold onto your wallet!

We are all collectors if we visit and participate on these boards.
In my opinion what you own has NOTHING to do with being a collector, it is DESIRE and INTEREST sprinkled with a ANY bit of what Ron says some ownership. That is because frankly not all of us can afford some of this stuff and what you own should have NO bearing on being an expert or collecter. So Ron's words are right on.... More than just one bare bones gun ie. the little pieces that make TMSG's oh so interesting to all of us to spend time on these boards and share.

I am by no means anywhere near Ron's or some other members expertise and if these boards did not exist I would be looking to acquire the information I have now oh about another 5 years from now if I were LUCKY. So my hat is tipped to all of you who have shared here expert or not, collector or not, everyone here helps make this board a collectors forum.
so thanks
michael
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#17 Zamm

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 08:19 AM

QUOTE
You can't imagine how difficult it is to find "silhouette" in a ratty old hard copy dictionary.

Phil,
It is amazing how we have come to rely on the ever helpful "spell-check"!
I too, find myself wondering where the hell I put my dictionary when posting to the forum tongue.gif

It intriques me about public figures and thier collections... I wonder how many people we have come to know
through media, goverment, etc... have class III licences.
best, Zamm
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#18 Tex

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 09:48 AM

Hey guys, as far as a spell checker, all you have to do is go to -

http://www.iespell.com

Download and it installs on your tool bar. Very easy to use and nothing offensive comes with it that I've seen.
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#19 SecondAmend

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 06:37 AM

Murray Willis = Advanced Thompson Collector
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