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How Did Wh M1s Become C&r


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#1 Wackiforkhaki

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 09:13 AM

Looking for the story on why 1985-86 WH M1 is classified as C&R. My gun has serial # in the mid 100's.
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#2 Waffen Und Bier

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 10:18 AM

Someone asked and ATF magic wanded it. That or some bureaucrat clerk who knew nothing about guns at ATF was compiling the list, saw that it looked like an M1A1 and added it to the list.......or typed Buttle instead of Tuttle............

Just like open bolt guns made before a certain date are okay, ones made after are not. Just like dealer samples at some point in time after May 19, 1986 became pre 86 keepers, when prior to May 19, 1986, you had to get rid of them upon surrendering your license. Just like an original stock on a Canadian High Power is okay, but an exact reproduction is not okay, but an exact reproduction of this is ok, but an exact reproduction of that is not okay, but if the request came in on an alternate Tuesday and Saturn were aligned with a tree frog, then maybe......Hope this helps to clarify.

Who knows with that lot.

Only two guns laws needed in this country:

1) Certain people shall not own or possess guns (felons, mentally ill, etc)

2) It shall be unlawful to use a gun in a crime.

That's it. Those two cover everything. No more needed.

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#3 Hawkeye_Joe

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 10:19 AM

I think ( scarey huh?) that it is the same as with the S&W model 76.. such a limited production run made them Curios....
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#4 AZDoug

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 12:42 PM

You could petition ATF to make regular WH 1928's C&R. They didn't make that many of them, either. There was an artical is SAR a few years ago, that listed the total production and SN's ranges per year on the WH 1928. I can't place my hands on it though.

Doug
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#5 Bill in VA

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 02:49 PM

In spite of what others may or may not say, there are three ways for a firearm to become a C&R: A) being at least 50 years old; cool.gif Firearms which are certified by the curator of a museum that exhibits firearms of museum interest; or C) firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. The WH M1s are on the C&R list because they are rare...only 609 were produced. As for the other WH TSMGs, the commemorative ones (WWII, Korean, and Vietnam commemoratives) are also C&R, and IIRC, so are the original .22 rimfire WH TSMGs. This leaves only the "standard" WH '28 TSMGs as not being C&R. FWIW, a total of 3219 WH '28 TSMGs were produced (this total includes the commemorative full-autos.) You can find a breakdown of production numbers and serial numbers by year at:

http://nfatoys.com/t...aug/aug98p6.htm

HTH
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#6 Hawkeye_Joe

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 03:29 PM

HEY!! I just checked the one pic of the left side that has a fairly clear shot of the serial # of the WH M1A1 that I just got dibs on.. and from what that site says.. MINE WAS THE LAST TRANSFERABLE ONE MADE! #M174A WOW!!!
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#7 OldFalGuy

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for the reference info
Appears mine is from 1980, doubt I will make it till its 50 years old. blink.gif Truth be told as no more can be made they should all be C&R, I mean all mg's, as that is about as curio as it can get right? SInce they about made out of unobtanium already- Yea, I know if wishes were...... Didn't think of buying that one commerative one that has been for sale, didn't think I would shoot it and that would be a real waste for me.
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#8 AZDoug

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 03:32 PM

Yup, somebody petitioned for the M1 variants to be added to the C&R list, as ATF didn't just look at it and say "wow, here is a rare commemorative, lets add it to the C&R list".

I also believe part of the C&R criteria has to do with"...not likely to be used in a crime..." or such, from memory.

A credible case could be made to add the WH '28 guns because they are also real authentic TSMG's, identical to their C&R Colt brothers, both in looks and functionality, produced from some of the same machinery and tooling, and by the same company, and only produced in low numbers as compared to WWII guns extant that are on the C&R list, and thus more rare. (subtle Arthur bait...) biggrin.gif

Something like a M11/9, fails on several counts for C&R staus, in contrast: high numbers produced, no historical interest, easily concealable, recent production.

Of course, it only really matters if you want to introduce the gun to a few certain states.

Doug
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#9 Bill in VA

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 08:13 PM

Easy now, Joe, don't get too excited just yet... Yours wasn't the last transferrable WH M1 TSMG, just the last WH M1 TSMG made in 1985. (FWIW, my WH M1 has a higher number...M187A... and is also transferrable.) According to the list, the last transferrable WH M1 TSMG was serial number M717A.
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#10 Hawkeye_Joe

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Posted 25 July 2004 - 11:00 PM

BUGGER!

Yeah .. I realized that about an hour after I posted....if there were 609 made then where were the other ones after 174? ..... laugh.gif DOOH!
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#11 SecondAmend

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 06:31 AM

Bill in VA,

Last I looked (and I'll admit it's been a while), oddly enough, even though there were only 17 Vietnam War Comm. 28 WH TSMGs made, they are not on the C&R list. I will stand corrected if mistaken. The 85 WWII and 145 KW Comm. 28 WH's are C&R.

This kind of makes the matching serial number set of Comm's that is (was?) for sale on Subguns for $48,000 sort of hard to move with the one odd-ball gun in the lot.
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#12 Bill in VA

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 07:34 AM

SecondAmendment...I haven't looked to see if teh VN commemorative '28s are "on the list" or not, but if they aren't it shouldn't take too much of an effort to successfully petition the BATF to add them to the list. They're not only a commemorative edition, but with only 17 of them, they're pretty rare.
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