19 replies to this topic

[scottedwin]

A local PD has an non transferrable Colt 1921 in very very nice condition. The Chief says it needs to be cut up and sold. Any idea on the realistic value of a cut up Colt 1921. The PD also has a few other items....a canvas thompson gun case, H&R mags, mint mag carrier, and a old stained original owners manual. Any help on approximate values would be appreciated. Its a shame the gun is going to end up in pieces, but the Chief says no to a museum and needs help rounding off his budget for new equipment. Thanks. Scott

[philasteen]

Are you absolutely sure it's not a transferable? It would be tragic to have to cut it up while transferable.

[scottedwin]

Yes, absolutely sure. The Department requested the status from the ATF and received a very detailed response which I reviewed, it is clear that it is not a transferrable or presample. And yes, it is a shame.

[billie32]

Is there any way the gun could be papered as a post sample? I realize that it would only then be worth the price of a kit, however, I know I'd rather see the gun intact and only worth a few thousand bucks then see it destroyed and worth exactly the same.

The canvas case, depending on which one it is (I would assume that it's an original Colt type case) and condition should be worth upwards of $500, the H&R mags are worth about $85-$150 apiece depending on condition, the mag carrier really depends on what it is (WWII, Colt, etc.), manual depends on exact type and condition. Would be interested in all or any of the items if they should come up for sale.

[ftc3906]

Might this be the Longport NJ PD's '21 of recent fame? Very coincidental timing of this inquiry.

[John Jr]

The parts kit is worth around $500 tops. The other stuff might bring around $500 total. I have a check for $1,000 waiting....


Now for the Truth: Parts kit (get someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING to part it out) worth around $6000-7000 if the parts are in VERY EXCELLENT SHAPE. The other stuff is worth whatever you can get for it on a gunboard like Sturm or Subguns. Take the owners manual to Ebay.

I will probably get roasted for telling the truth, but hey...Thats Thompson Greed! oh.. SN of the to be destroyed gun would help out the colt freaks on the board.


Jr

[The1930sRust]

Why not just keep it? Tell them to get a grant for whatever they need. Homeland Security. Build a display case. Donate it. Can't they be convinced of the history? Does it have a history with the department? It is as American as apple pie and bootlegging. To cut it up would be simply un-American...

[Walter63a]

I couldn't have said it better Chris. Under present circumstances, I'd rather see it in one piece under glass, rather than cut up and sold piecemeal. Regards, Walter

[scottedwin]

Under glass would be fine with me also. However, worst case is the gun sits in the basement vault at the PD for another few years and the next Chief destroys the gun and parts. On the bright side, at least the parts kit will be able to be circulated among collectors now.

It is not the NJ gun. I will email Gordon the serial number and whatever history the Department has.

[AZDoug]

It can probably find home in a museum. I can put you in touch with people that can arrange this. e-mail me.

nac15@sprintmail.com

Doug

[Mario Scarpino]

I would think the "taxpayers" in any local community would have a fit if something that has a present value of at least $20,000.00 was going to be destroyed and essentially thrown in the trash! If the Police Chief decided to cut up his new cruiser into several pieces and then sell the pieces for scrap, what do you think the local taxpayer would say and/or do to such an "idiot"?

Now all of us here know the Thompson cannot bring that kind of money due to several stupid laws passed by our wonderful elected politicians. But here is where the class 3 advocates step up and "play the game". Someone in the local community has to step up and do something like the following: Make it widely known what the firearm is all about, its history, its value (with papers), its collectibililty, etc. Make it clear to everybody that it would be insane to destroy such a valuable weapon, a loss of at least $20,000.00 that the local taxpayers will suffer if the firearm is destroyed! Only a mad man would commit such a crime against his own community, against the very people who pay his wages!

But you all are saying, hey Mario this ain't going no where cause it doesn't have papers and it can never be made transferrable, yadda, yadda, yadda... I say this is where the class 3 crowd brings out the folly of the (what I call unconstitutional) gun laws. Make it known that if some of the anti-second amendment (i.e. unconstitutional) laws were not on the books, this would not be a problem. It could be a matter of the police department filing for the paperwork (form 5?? isn't that the one free to government entities), getting the gun registered and then turning around and putting the firearm on the market at current market value? The 1934 law then takes over and it can only be transferred where currently legal (or someting like that).

I think the local taxpayer needs to understand that laws passed in the dark of night (1986??), by some shady politicians who worked a deal (a rider to a main bill) at the last minute, are causing them great financial loss. These laws are causing other government agencies and law enforcement in general "great financial pain"! It's time to change very bad and "unconstitutional" laws. There is no reason to destroy such a value piece of history.

Then you all say, "the public in general will never accept the idea of putting a "machine gun" back on the street". Well, according to the History Channel, 50% of the "machine guns" (guys I can't remember if it said fully automatic, machine guns or subguns, but you get the idea) in America are presently owned by private citizens. And I believe we are talking several hundred thousand in the hands of private citizens. So how is one more subgun in the hands of a law abiding citizen going to take us over the edge??? When was the last time a legally owned and registered Thompson (not just any subgun) was use to commit a crime? I don't think brokaw, rather, krondyke, or jennings (pussy!!) has had this on the news as long as I have been alive!

Somebody needs to step up, spend some time and effort to educate the local taxpayers and make a big splash for the good of General Thompson, Colt and Thompson fans all over the world.

Where is this town? If its within 200 - 250 miles of Kansas City, Missouri, I'll take the "Mario Challenge" and stir up some shi....

We really need to see just what we can do in regard to preserving this and future unregistered Thompsons and repealing stupid gun laws. Are we just going to sit here and someday read the obituary for this Tommy? I hope not!!

If the AW ban can sunset (I HOPE IT DOES and actually thought it never would!!), then we can make other things happen too. If we in fact have "chuckie", hilltlery, teddy, and diane on the ropes, lets go for the knock out!!

Guys, please see the September issue of Guns and Ammo, page 98, article called "A Second Amendment Caucus". Maybe there is a member of this caucus in the state where the Thompson is located. As stated in the article, here is their mission statement: "Second Amendment refers to the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of defense, recreation and collection".

I think the police chief is infringing upon our right to "collect"!!!!!

Mario Scarpino

[The1930sRust]

Mario. Hurrrrumph!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[normandy123]

I am for the donate it to a WWII or the like museum...one here at Ft. Douglas in Utah that has lots of relics and no Thompson's (yet). I know some Colt 1921's made it to the war as did the 1928 overstamps...I can dig a name up for you and they can contact each other and get a letter from them for ATF approval.
Last parts kits of 1921 vintage i saw up for grabs about a year or so ago went for the neighborhood of $4000 to $5000 once all the parts were scavenged it was Recon Ordnance that parted out some he got from some South American country he said. 4-years ago and dealer in Reno, Nevada, cut up 7 Colts from northern region of New York State since the PD could not prove ownership. Even though they bought them new....could not convince the ATF coldhearts they went for $2500 back then.

[Nick Iannamico]

Tell them its on the collectors "endangered species" list.

[Waffen Und Bier]

Why John Jr. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were starting to develop a taste....nay, a soft spot for Colts

Doesn't the law say "lawfully possessed prior to May 19, 1986?" If the PD had it registered, even though on a Form 10, it would still have been "lawfully possessed" (or is it "registered") and thus transferable (otherwise the PD would have possessed it unlawfully). I know, I know.... government......logic.....government......logic.....


Just curious, but where did the discussion about rising MG prices go? It was being discussed how one can advertise a gun for so much and not sell it, then raise the price a a bit later and sell it.

[gijive]

Mario,

Although I agree with some of your points, the issue about registering it on a Form 5 won't work. If the gun was never registered by the police department that owned it, it can only be registered on a Form 10 and it becomes, in essence, a "dead-end" gun. In other words, it can only be sold or transferred to another law enforcement or government agency. No law enforcement agency is going to purchase an antique collector's item for its arsenal. If that was practical, the agency that owns it would still have it in service.

No, that's why it has been sitting in the basement vault for years. It could only be transferred on a tax-free Form 5 if it was already previously registered. The person posting the original thread stated the gun was checked through the NFA Branch and it has never been registered. A Form 10 is the only alternative and that doesn't do any good for the police agency, they might as well leave it as is if they are going to keep it.

I don't agree with cutting it up or the fact that it can never be transferred to a collector under current law, but what else are they going to do with it? I like the museum donation idea, but it looks like the police administration wants to get some money for it. It's an unfortunate situation.

[Grey Crow]

Our police department also has a Colt 21 that was never registered.

They intend on using it and it's accessories as a display along with other antique and modern law enforcement items in City Hall.

There have been many inquires over the years in attempts to sell/buy it.

[Sgt]

I think the essence of Mario's post was that we need to change the laws. If not for all MGs, why couldn't legislation be passed that would protect the unique and historical firearms? I can answer my own question here. Most of us agree with Mario's logic. Crime won't run rampant if the registration laws for Thompsons were revised. However, it has nothing to do with logic. I'm afraid it has more to do with the symbolic nature of such a law. The big job will be in educating the public. I can hear them now, "Oh my god! This new law will legalize Machineguns!! What will happen to the children!!" Well, you know what I mean. Having said that, I don't think we should give up either. Laws can be changed. It will take a lot of enthusiasm and someone very savvy of the system. It would also take someone who is adept at rallying the masses. Go for it, Mario!!!

[TOMMY SMG]

Scottedwin, (Scott)


Since it sounds like these 21's are going to be "CUT" no matter what, it sure would be nice if you could get some nice pictures of them before their distroyed to share with us. I'm sure that all the board members would like to take one last look at them before there gone forever!!!!!

Thanks,

Jim

PS - Serial numbers would be great.

[John Jr]

QUOTE

Why John Jr. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were starting to develop a taste....nay, a soft spot for Colts

Nah... Only way I would get rid of my Savage would be to trade for a 21A Irish Sword with boot to me. Sword would have to be at least 92% with drums and mags...I might settle for one of the Marine Crops guns in 85% or better but would need more boot.

Other than that colt is a firearms maker, not worth one cent more than any other Thompson maker is.

But thats just me...