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Can Kahr Drum Mags Be Converted To 50rds?


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#1 timkel

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 05:59 PM

I was wondering if the Kahr 10 rd drum mags can be converted to 50 rds after 9/13/04?
How are to 10 rd drums constructed? Is conversion possible?
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#2 OldFalGuy

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 06:26 PM

Timkel, I had been thinking the same thing about a month ago and then saw a pic of the inside of a 10rd one- oh my not a job for the home hobbyist by a long shot. For want of the correct nomenclature, the feed circles are absent (of course) and making them and tack welding them in would be a real job. If I thought there wasn't going to be another ban (and I think there will be soon on down the road) I would buy one for the heck of it. Better to avoid them altogether and wait for Kahr to make up a big batch of L's in the low low 200's. Might be a month before we can lay hands on them but its better than trying to convert the 10's or paying a nickle for the current L's. After the 14 perhps the preban L's will be out there for $250 or less if folks just want to move them, I know I wouldn't buy one today for $300 at all.
M
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#3 timkel

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 06:41 PM

Yes, that sounds like too much trouble.
I may try one of Kahr 50 rd drums when they come out.
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#4 Bob B

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 06:52 PM

My advice would be not to convert an "x" drum at all. Even if you were successful in replacing the spiral feed guides in the drum and cover (difficult but not impossible), the spring is probably also different, and the stampings and winding instructions would forever mark it as a conversion. This in itself could land you in a world of trouble - the burden would be on you to prove you converted it when expiration of the ban made it "legal" (or maybe not even then) to do so.

Assuming the ban expires only to be re-implemented at a politically "less sensitive" time, you'd be in possession of an illegally modified magazine. Try explaining that to a judge: "But, but, your Honor, I did it in the six week period before the ban was reinstated ..." "Sure ya did, that's what they all say. I hereby sentence you ..." sad.gif
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#5 Bill in VA

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 08:33 PM

Um, Bob, if 922(v) and (w) ("the ban") expires markings on magazines (and firearms) will mean nothing, even if there is another ban further down the road. (They'd have to come up with a way to distinguish "pre-XYZ" ban from "post-XYZ" ban magazines and firearms (just like Congress did for the pre-/post-922(w) magazines...marking them either with "LE/GOVT ONLY" or date of mfg.) Obviously, if "post-XYZ ban" magazines were marked the same as post-922(w) ("pre-XYZ ban") no one would be able to tell the difference and even the lowest court in the land would overturn convictions due to the law being too vague. Legally speaking, the burden wouldn't be on the magazine possessor either. It would be on the prosecution. (We're generally presumed "innocent until found guilty" here in the US.)
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#6 PK.

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 09:53 PM

Yes it is doable. If I owned an X, I would convert it the moment the ban dies.
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#7 Ron A

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:57 AM

PK - can we expect this to be another service you will offer?
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#8 Bob B

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 02:12 AM

Bill in VA:

Not to argue, because I'm certainly no authority, but this reasoning puzzles me because if true, even a temporary lapse of the ban would be tantamount to a general amnesty on any and all currently illegal converted X drums out there (and for that matter any other enumerated violations under the assault weapons ban). Let's assume that someone has an X drum that was illegally modified years ago. The law says that since that time he's been guilty of a serious crime. Okay, the ban expires, only to be reimplemented (let's say) following elections. Can this 2-month window possibly let him off the hook for years of breaking the law? Your point about requiring "post xyz" markings is well taken, but I can't believe the government would just give a free pass to people who have violated the existing ban for years. That would essentially encourage violations of any ban with a sunset clause - if the ban expired a violator could simply claim the illegal conversion wasn't made before then, and if it didn't he could just continue to keep the "evidence" well-hidden. Again, I'm no legal expert, but there ARE exceptions to the "innocent until proven guilty" thing - for example when certain presumptions are written into the law (I remember reading in the Virginia Code a few years back of the legal presumption that mere possession of an unregistered machine gun is prima facie evidence of the intent to use it in a crime), or when a government agency has absolute discretion to determine whether merely having certain parts on the premises constitutes "possession" of an illegal weapon. You may be perfectly right in your analysis and in fact I hope you are, but I'd hate to have to become a test case to find out! I've seen a few such pyrrhic victories in my lifetime- people who ultimately prevailed but lost everything they had getting to that point. Sometimes a huge disconnect between ideal and reality, theory and practice. sad.gif

Edit: Not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't it also the case (not being a legal eagle I don't know this for sure) that an affirmative defense shifts the burden of proof to the one making it? For example, if a defendant doesn't dispute committing a proscribed act but contends it wasn't criminal because of special circumstances, isn't it his burden to prove (not simply to claim) that those circumstances in fact existed?

Bob

Edited by Bob B, 18 August 2004 - 02:36 AM.

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#9 Ron A

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 03:22 AM

Several mfg's of AR15 type rifles are advertising that if you purchase their gun now - when the ban expires they will send you a correct flash hider. I also saw in the shotguns news an add for Beretta in which the distributor will send you 2 high cap mags when the ban expires. ???????
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#10 Grey Crow

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 04:20 AM

IMHO, the X drums will be collectors items as well, I was thinking of picking up a few more X's.

Why change them?

By the conversation here the new L drums will not be much more cost wise than an X.

Who knows the next ban to come around might just be for a 3 round capacity, like a plugged shotgun.
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#11 Bill in VA

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 06:54 AM

Bob, You raise some good questions. I'll try and clarify...

You asked, "Let's assume that someone has an X drum that was illegally modified years ago. The law says that since that time he's been guilty of a serious crime. Okay, the ban expires, only to be reimplemented (let's say) following elections. Can this 2-month window possibly let him off the hook for years of breaking the law?" Sure it can. A good (albeit not perfect) parallel can be be used with regards to alcohol and Prohibition. Ex., I'm a bootlegger, have a good stock of whiskey laid in, and then Prohibition is repealed. Can I be arrested for possession of alcohol? No, since first, they'd have no way of knowing when it was manufactured, and secondly because possession of alcohol is no longer illegal. Another example (again, not an exact parallel, but again, close enough for our purposes here) is the 1968 NFA Amnesty. (In this case, however, it was a bonafide amnesty...as long as you registered the gun during the allotted time you could not be prosecuted.

When (if?) the ban expires, it will be as if it never existed. Consider: How could the govt. prove you modified your (manufactured?) your magazine before 922(w) expired? As soon as the ban expires, there's nothing to prevent anyone (state laws not withstanding) from possessing a "high capacity" magazine.

Also consider: Interestingly enough, 922(w) does not prohibit manufacture, only possession and transfer. Therefore, even if you manufactured it during the ban you couldn't be prosecuted for doing so. (OTOH, if you ended up with a really nit-picky prosecutor, he could possibly argue that you couldn't have manufactured it without it also being in your possession...in that case, maybe you could argue you only made the drum body, someone else made the cover, and yet another person made the winder...each of you only made a few parts of a magazine, and of course, it is not a magazine until it is assembled...i.e., the three of you each made "spare magazine parts." (At present, legal to do so.))

You also mentioned the issue of presumption of innocence vs. VA.'s Uniform MG Code and how an unregistered MG constitutes prima facie evidence of intent to commit an crime of aggrerssion. In this instance, since the MG wasn't registered, it proves guilt...i.e., you've been proven guilty. (It's a lot like a speeding ticket...yuou get a ticket, the radar proves you were, in fact, speeding. Now it's up to you to prove that somehow you were not speeding...perhaps the radar gun was defective, or had not been recently calibrated, etc...)

Lastly, you mentioned the issue of differentiating post-922(w) magazines with post-XYZ magazines. Certainly, the law MUST include a way of differentiating between the two, or, as I stated earlier, the law wouldn't stand on grounds of being unConstitutionally vague. In other words, there has to be a clear and difinitive way of telling which ones are legal/illegal to possess.

As for an "affirmative defense," "affirmative defense" is concrete, exonerating evidence, but with the stipulation that you do not dispute you committed the act (as opposed to admitting you are guilty of a crime.) let's say, for example, the law says it is illegal to drive a car unless you have a driver's license. You're pulled over for driving a car, and when you go to court, you use your driver's license as an affirmative defense..."Yes, your honor, I did drive the car, but I have a license to do so, and that exonerates me of guilt." Such evidence must be accepted by the court as concrete proof of your innocence, and thus negates the plantiff's claim/suit.

HTH
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#12 fred

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 07:54 AM

An X drum is still a good thing to own. When at the range and sharing your Thompson, invariably, someone will want to shoot it with the DRUM. The X drum, limited to 10 rounds, provides a less expensive piece of herdware to drop or bang around, offers the ability to do a full dump with only 10 rounds (saves money) and allows new shooters the 10 round limit in case of any runaway.
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#13 PK.

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 08:18 AM

Fred, I tip my hat to you sir. I have never been able to envision a justification for the X drum, but the points you make are certainly viable.
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#14 Lancer

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 08:34 AM

QUOTE (fred @ Aug 18 2004, 08:54 AM)
An X drum is still a good thing to own.

That brings to mind this question. How much will an X drum be worth after the ban expires?
I would think they would be pretty cheap. Any guesses?
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#15 OldFalGuy

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 10:09 AM

Lancer, real good question- I don't know what they cost now but I would imagine they would be about 50-75 buxs in a few months as folks might want to rid themselves of them and take the cash to get a "real drum" (some here may feel only a "C" is a real drum) That is about all an "X" would be worth to me for the reason stated by Fred, he makes a great point. Would hate to accidently grab the wrong (X) drum and end up at the range with only that and a few sticks though. PErhaps I should paint it PINK.

Mark


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#16 Bob B

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 11:19 AM

Bill in VA, as I said earlier you may be perfectly correct, but speaking only for myself I'd just as soon not become a martyr in order to eventually be found innocent of wrongdoing. Far easier (and cheaper) to just buy a $175-$200 L drum when it becomes legal to do so. If I know anything at all about the law (and admittedly that's not much) it's that anything "debateable" is grist for the legal mill. If it's not CLEARLY spelled out, I steer clear. I'd sooner not have to "argue" anything, and I'm too old and tired to put before a jury the question of who has the better lawyer!

Virginia's machine gun presumption isn't quite as simple as "being in possession is proof of possession", it's more like "being in possession is not only proof of possession but also prima facie proof of intent to USE it to commit a violent felony." Might seem a small distinction, but with "Law and Order" judges and mandatory sentencing it could easily spell the difference between 3-5 years in ordinary confinement versus 25-to life in SuperMax!

As for "nit-picky prosecutors" (and regulatory/enforcement agents in general), when did anyone hear of one who WASN'T nit-picky? They wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't. Remember that a prosecutor is an advocate - it's not a prosecutor's job to rationalize innocence, it's his job to rationalize guilt!

Don't get me wrong, Bill, in a way I'm playing devil's advocate here. If I ever did find myself in this sort of legal bind, I'd certainly want you in my corner! wink.gif

Bob

Edited by Bob B, 18 August 2004 - 11:34 AM.

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#17 deerslayer

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 11:29 AM

user posted image

OK guys, here is the simple sollution. Turn the drum into a 30 or 36 round drum. I created a ring like this to fix up on empty 39 round drum. Rotors for those(39 round drums) are impossible to find so used a 10 round rotor and a ring to make it work again.

The rotor on an X drum isn't strong enough to push out 50 rounds but it will usually do 30 to 40 rounds. I was planning to make up a bunch of these if the ban fails and offer the service if needed to convert the x drums.
Dan
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#18 timkel

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 01:48 PM

Deerslayer
Pure genius!
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